The Vortex beckons,how many contradictions and errors are in the Qur'an

[Gharib]

I do not "control" my thoughts at all, how would that work? I think what I think. The only thing I control (usually) are my actions.

The heart just pumps blood, that's all it is. I choose who I like and I am my brain - or rather the processes that we describe as our consciousness, occur in the brain. I don't know what the heart has to do with it, it's there to pump blood.



Because I hear them - how would I stop them. Maybe my brain is the one that can't stop them and I'm imposing the voices on it. I don't really see what you mean? Are you trying to point out the distinction between the conscious an the unconscious self?

lets leave this OK.

 

[Commoner]

what distintion?

really? well how would you explain sex with the same sex? or is that just a trick?
if you have sex with another male you are gay. otherwise you would never do it. you said it yourself.

Really? Well how would you explain sex with the opposite sex? Or is that just a trick? If you have sex with a woman you are heterosexual. Otherwise you'd never do it.

Point out the distinction, please.

I asked you this because you claimed that no heterosexual ever chose to turn gay - and that they were gay all along, yet you also claimed that there are cases where those who were once gay turned heterosexual, but were not heterosexual all along. If you're going to say that one group of people was not genuine in their previous lifestyle, how can you claim the other was?

what do you mean on what gorunds?

Your justification.

they were homosexual. if you ask a person that had a wife then latter became homosexual, how did this happen, they'll say it's natural, from birth.

But since you disagree that it is natural and from birth, wouldn't you argue the opposite - That in fact they did choose to become gay.

well yeah, everyones nature is heterosexual. thats why i'm saying a gay can become a heterosexual if they wanted to and stopped saying that it's natural. if you convince yourself that 2+2=5 then how can you have a discussion with that person that 2+2=4 when he's already convinced himself?

That everyone's nature is heterosexual might be you assumption, but that doesn't make it true. As you've pointed out, homosexuals feel that being gay is their nature. You have no justification for telling them it's not, just as they have no justification for telling you that it's not in your nature to be a hetorosexual.

It's you who have convinced yourself that everyone's nature is heterosexual - that's why I'm having a hard time discussing it with you. You see - I don't really know if one might be able to choose their sexuality, but I find you arguments unconvincing because I feel they are based on unfouded assumptions. That's all.

 

[Commoner]

lets leave this OK.

OK, I didn't even want to start it.

I was simply trying to point out to you that I can't simply decide what I like. I just do.

 

[Gharib]

Really? Well how would you explain sex with the opposite sex? Or is that just a trick? If you have sex with a woman you are heterosexual. Otherwise you'd never do it.

yes one is heterosexual if they have sex with the opposite sex, but some gays do not realise they are homosexual untill they start liking men.

Point out the distinction, please.

does the above help?

I asked you this because you claimed that no heterosexual ever chose to turn gay - and that they were gay all along,

they were gay all along. but their brain blocks it untill they end up in some situation that makes the brain kick in that it is attracted to men.

yet you also claimed that there are cases where those who were once gay turned heterosexual, but were not heterosexual all along.

they aren't heterosexual if they have had sex with men. a homosexual is clasified as such when one is attracted to the same sex.

If you're going to say that one group of people was not genuine in their previous lifestyle, how can you claim the other was?

because it's got to do with their childhood. you aren't accepting this because you don't like the fact that:
1 some men have a relationship with a woman up untill they realise they like men,
2 some men who are gay change back to being heterosexual (which is possible because homosexuality is a choice)
3 those who are heterosexual (who have not been affected by their childhood) cannot become gay.

Your justification.

well i've said that i understand how homosexuality works even though i have never been homosexual and i can tell who is straight and who is gay. if you think thats rubish then i don't know what to say to. i can prove it but like i've said before, no one will take me serious nor believe me. i bet someone will say you aren't qualified as a scientist so what you say is just your oppinion.

But since you disagree that it is natural and from birth, wouldn't you argue the opposite - That in fact they did choose to become gay.

no they choose to stay gay, not to become gay. becoming gay happens at the early years of a child. there is't much of a choice involved at this stage when the brain thinks differently.

That everyone's nature is heterosexual might be you assumption, but that doesn't make it true. As you've pointed out, homosexuals feel that being gay is their nature.

yeah thats exactly right. do you remember what you used to do when you were a kid? so naturaly when one doesn't remember they say it's natural. homosexuals themself do not understand how they become homosexual. so the best answer is "it's natural".

You have no justification for telling them it's not, just as they have no justification for telling you that it's not in your nature to be a hetorosexual.

ah heres the statement. told you i'm not a scientist so what ever i say isn't true. right?

It's you who have convinced yourself that everyone's nature is heterosexual - that's why I'm having a hard time discussing it with you.

i haven't convinced myself, i know it. i can explain it. if you know that 2+2=4 then why should you believe someone else that says 2+2=5??

can you explain homosexuality, Commoner?

You see - I don't really know if one might be able to choose their sexuality, but I find you arguments unconvincing because I feel they are based on unfouded assumptions. That's all.

they aren't just unfounded assumptions taken from thin air. you ask any other person, be it muslim or not who says homosexuality is a choice, to explian to you how homosexuality works, no one will be able to give you a logical explanation.
they'll just make you go round and round. do it with a christian if you think just about anyone can explain homosexuality. please open a thread and i will come to be on your side and dissprove that what they are saying isn't how homosexuality works. will that satisfy you?

 

[Bismillah]

see post 504, explain for what reason you introduced singularity.

I don't understand why this is so hard for you. I have explained multiple time that I referred to Shaitan, or Iblis. Singular.

Furthermore, since you are incapable of supporting your illogical claims I will ignore any arguments you make, until you decide to do so or admit being wrong.

 

[England my lionheart]

exactly, they are gay since childhood but don't realise it after growing up. you don't become gay overnight.

So its obviously not a choice then as you agree that they are Gay in Chilhood but do not act on it until adulthood which is correct as thats how they are born.

 

[England my lionheart]

well if one should be able to deicde both ways, how about you become gay? can you do it?

as for gays, it's got to do with their childhood environment, it affects their brain and so the childs brain consideres itself a female (it likes stuff that females like).

but just like all sicknesses homosexuality has a cure. the only problem is, who's willing to take the pill?

Unbelievable Eselam,and what would that cure be.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote: Eselam
we're not talking about ice cream. please don't use these kinds of examples. homosexuality has to do with the brain (something you can't control), not with ice cream.

So In your view Homosexuality has gone from being a choice with lust being the motivation to being something to do with the Brain and something you can't control.

 

[Commoner]

yes one is heterosexual if they have sex with the opposite sex, but some gays do not realise they are homosexual untill they start liking men.

does the above help?

they were gay all along. but their brain blocks it untill they end up in some situation that makes the brain kick in that it is attracted to men.

they aren't heterosexual if they have had sex with men. a homosexual is clasified as such when one is attracted to the same sex.

No, it doesn't help - look at all the statements you've made above. You are using different logic for one group of people than you're using for another. Let me no point out the trouble I see in your logic.

First you claim that when someone is heterosexual but then goes on to become a homosexual, they were actually homosexual all along. Then you take the opposite position that those that were once homosexual and are now heterosexual, were not heterosexual all along. This is only because you place a high significance on homosexual sex - you see it as disgusting and claim that if someone has had sex with a men, they are gay. But you fail to realize that if someone has had sex with a woman, they were heterosexual - by the same logic. So to now go and claim that homosexuals can choose to be heterosexuals but not the other way around is a biased oppinion and is not supported by facts. Since you have no way of distinguishing between the validity of the two types of conversions (hetero>gay and gay>hetero), you can't claim that. Either both are equally valid or both equally invalid.

because it's got to do with their childhood. you aren't accepting this because you don't like the fact that:
1 some men have a relationship with a woman up untill they realise they like men,
2 some men who are gay change back to being heterosexual (which is possible because homosexuality is a choice)
3 those who are heterosexual (who have not been affected by their childhood) cannot become gay.

This is your very naive view of a person's sexuality. It's all based on the assumption that homosexuality is problematic, unnatural, a disease. Sorry, but you have not demonstrated that to be the case.

yeah thats exactly right. do you remember what you used to do when you were a kid? so naturaly when one doesn't remember they say it's natural. homosexuals themself do not understand how they become homosexual. so the best answer is "it's natural".

But neither do you have any reason to claim that it's not natural.

i haven't convinced myself, i know it. i can explain it. if you know that 2+2=4 then why should you believe someone else that says 2+2=5??

There is no 2+2 in you case, there's just your claim that it's a 4. You've never demonstrated anything that would justify you to claim that everyone is born heterosexual. Yet I've shown you articles that point out the differences in the brains of homosexuals and their conclusion that homosexuality is certainly not a choice. You've probably not even looked at the article let alone read it.

can you explain homosexuality, Commoner?

I can't explain sexuality at all. Neither can anyone else.

they aren't just unfounded assumptions taken from thin air. you ask any other person, be it muslim or not who says homosexuality is a choice, to explian to you how homosexuality works, no one will be able to give you a logical explanation.
they'll just make you go round and round. do it with a christian if you think just about anyone can explain homosexuality. please open a thread and i will come to be on your side and dissprove that what they are saying isn't how homosexuality works. will that satisfy you?

But you claim to have some grand knowledge on the subject? You can explain it while nobody else can? No offense, Esalam, but if I know anything about you, I know that psychology is not your strong suit. You don't understand human sexuality anymore that anyone else, but while other simply admit it, you try and push your very naive explanation. I can only hope you lack of knowledge is due to your age.

 

[Gharib]

So In your view Homosexuality has gone from being a choice with lust being the motivation to being something to do with the Brain and something you can't control.

So its obviously not a choice then as you agree that they are Gay in Chilhood but do not act on it until adulthood which is correct as thats how they are born.

just incase you guys have missed it. the following is what i've said concerning homosexuality being a choice:

alright lets see me prove myself right that no one would believe me.

have said it before and will say it again, homosexuality is due to a persons surrounding environment. it is not much of a choice to be homosexual when one is under the age of 10. but due to factors such as a boy playing with girls, of which there are many other cases other than just this, the boys brain starts to like what the girls do, he starts to do addapt to the likes of females. now at this stage it isn't much of a personal choice like i said, cos he doen't understand whats going on, nor does he know that life is about men being attracted to women. but it is the parents fault for letting this happen. it is the same example as leaving a young cat to grow up with pupps, the cats brain addapts to the dogs behaviour, and you have a cat acting like a dog. same with the boy. but once the boy grows then he can understand that life is about men and women, not men and men. but still he's brain is affected from the childhood factors therefore it won't just automatically change to it's normal course. but the man can change that part of his brain back to how it is sopposed to be if he really wanted, it is something reversible, but most homosexuals denie that it isn't natural and thus they denie there is something wrong with them that needs fixing.

this is just a sneak preview of what i can say about it. but too bad no one will take it seriously.

 

[Gharib]

Unbelievable Eselam,and what would that cure be.

haven't figured it out yet. something to do with psychology i guess.

 

[Gharib]

But you claim to have some grand knowledge on the subject? You can explain it while nobody else can?

yes correct. but you and everyone else don't believe me. i've said many times no one will believe me nor take me serious about it.

No offense, Esalam, but if I know anything about you, I know that psychology is not your strong suit

just as i said before. i don't qualify to explain how homosexuality works in your eyes because i'm not a scientist. prophet Muhammed (saws) was an illiterate merchant and became the best character of history with 1.5 billion people following him in every aspect. so how did that happen?

You don't understand human sexuality anymore that anyone else, but while other simply admit it, you try and push your very naive explanation.

i understand how homosexuality works. but everyone is too gutless to hear me properly. who'd want to accept anything a muslim says, especialy if hes right?

I can only hope you lack of knowledge is due to your age.

it may be, but then again your lack of understanding might be due to your age and there is nothing with me.

as for the rest of your statement i personaly feel as though i'm trying to push a wall with my head, when speaking to most of you guys about this. i'll just stop unless theres something really worth replying to. no offence to you in any way.

 

[England my lionheart]

just incase you guys have missed it. the following is what i've said concerning homosexuality being a choice:

Eselam i have three older Sisters,they used to put make up on me and dress me up etc,so tell me why i am not Gay,i am not attracted to any other Male,my freind has 4 Sisters and he's not Gay either.
If what you are saying was true how do you explain a Bi sexual person if a Persons sexuality is the result of their early development.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam i have three older Sisters,they used to put make up on me and dress me up etc,so tell me why i am not Gay,i am not attracted to any other Male,my freind has 4 Sisters and he's not Gay either.
If what you are saying was true how do you explain a Bi sexual person if a Persons sexuality is the result of their early development.

look not everyone becomes gay for playing with girls. like ventarios replied to my cat example that his uncle had a cat feed off a female dog and grow up with pupps but never acted like a dog. if you want me to give precise answers at this moment, i'm affraid i can't do it. i'd need to do a research on homosexuals, a study and thats impossible considering no one would do it. even in RF no one is willing to do it. at this moment all i could say is that atleast 6/10 kids that greew up around girls have been affected to what extent i cannot say. i'm only trying to be realistic rather than say something i'm not sure of.

and it doesn't really matter how many girls you are around. i personally know of a case where a youger boy is doing the things a girl does and i can see the sings of homosexuality on him.

as for bisexuals, i can't explain that. i only know of homosexuality.

 

[Aquitaine]

Eselam i have three older Sisters,they used to put make up on me and dress me up etc,so tell me why i am not Gay,i am not attracted to any other Male,my freind has 4 Sisters and he's not Gay either.

If what you are saying was true how do you explain a Bi sexual person if a Persons sexuality is the result of their early development.

OMG I'm the same! Three older Sisters, a very Female-Oriented family. Yet, I'm Hetero-Sexual.

 

[Gharib]

OMG I'm the same! Three older Sisters, a very Female-Oriented family. Yet, I'm Hetero-Sexual.

thats great, if only we had some homosexuals telling us about their childhood.

 

[Aquitaine]

look not everyone becomes gay for playing with girls. like ventarios replied to my cat example that his uncle had a cat feed off a female dog and grow up with pupps but never acted like a dog. if you want me to give precise answers at this moment, i'm affraid i can't do it. i'd need to do a research on homosexuals, a study and thats impossible considering no one would do it. even in RF no one is willing to do it. at this moment all i could say is that atleast 6/10 kids that greew up around girls have been affected to what extent i cannot say. i'm only trying to be realistic rather than say something i'm not sure of.

and it doesn't really matter how many girls you are around. i personally know of a case where a youger boy is doing the things a girl does and i can see the sings of homosexuality on him.

as for bisexuals, i can't explain that. i only know of homosexuality.

Yeah because...... playing with girls at a young age affects one's sexuality :sarcastic

Why do you need to do further research? You're a Muslim, and you have the definitive, finalized, Manual-of-Life (the Koran) in all it's beauty and wisdom. Whatever the Koran says, goes - right?

Out of curiosity, since the Koran is the word of God and the finalized book etc, what does the Koran say about Hydrogen Engines? Oh and also what's the Koran's stance on China's Tianamin Square massacre?

 

[MissAlice]

LOL, and my gay cousin had 2 brothers.

 

[YmirGF]

thats great, if only we had some homosexuals telling us about their childhood.

I offered to be your fricken guinea pig and you have ignored my offer.
I find your unsupportable views on this matter very juvenile and quite contemptible.
You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about and yet on and on you prattle.

I am sure Allah must be proud.

 

[Commoner]

i understand how homosexuality works. but everyone is too gutless to hear me properly. who'd want to accept anything a muslim says, especialy if hes right?

Oh, come on, you being a muslim has nothing to do with it. However, it does become a problem if you start mixing purely religious ideas in your arguments. Unless you can justify them as more than just "the Qur'an says so", they are no good in a debate, especially since this forum is a common ground for many different religions and beliefs.