The Vortex beckons,how many contradictions and errors are in the Qur'an

[England my lionheart]

I will now present:
3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

 

[Gharib]

Ah but eselam my friend, if you see it from a non-Muslim perspective, I'm sure you could see why it would be considered to be copying the Bible.

what if you are viewing it from behind and not infront? if you look at it from behind, it does look like the quran was copied from the bible, but if you look at it from the front, you'd expect an author to know about all the novels he's written, wouldn't you?

For example, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Adam, Noah, Mary - they're all mentioned in the Tanakh and New Testament. The Qur'an mentions them as well, with stories very similar - some identical, others different (in Islamic belief, probably due to tahrif?), to the ones mentioned in the Bible.

well yeah most are similar, appart from the ones that have been changed by man's own hand.

To a non-Muslim, who does not believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, and seeing the Qur'an come hundreds of years later writing similar stories, it's understandable why non-Muslims see some parts of the Qur'an as repetition of the Bible.

yes i do understand how a non muslim would see it, can't blame anyone for it.

but all the books of Allah were a guidance for the people that they were revealed to. now as times change so do the laws of Allah (swt). for example if we look at Adam (as) during his time, a brother was allowed to marry his sister, there was no one else to marry. these days, there are plenty of people so marrying ones sister is not permitted. now since Allah is the author of all these laws, it is logical and should be expected that he knows what the other preophets were given.

if you compare the bible and quran, it automatically goes "the quran is a copy of the bible with slight modification".
if you compare the bible and torah, it automatically goes "the bible is a copy of the torah with slight modification".

if you ask a jew about the bible they'll say it's a copy of the torah, if you ask a chrristian, they'll say, it is from the same god hence the similarities. it's the same with the quran. Allah says in the quran that it (the quran) is a confirmation of the previous revelations. you decide.

 

[syberpriend]

I will now present:
3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

What are you trying to quote here friennd?

 

[Gharib]

Well we'll see Eselam,there are still 996 to examine,the Qur'an isn't a copy of the Bible as much as a hijack IMO,the books of the Bible came before the Qur'an so anything from the Bible that appears in the Qur'an is a copy.

England. when an author makes a series of books about the same topic, it is logical that the second book will resemble the first one.

lets use those Harry Potter books, shall we. there was the first book, then came the second, simmilar yet slightly different to the one before. why? well because the times have changed, harry has grown older, but he still has his past memories. so the second book consists of his past slightly and about his future. very logical.

but you don't see it this way, do you?

let me ask you, if someone was to make up a harry potter book after the first one, also entitled harry potter, do you recon the person who originaly came up with the idea would let someone else use the same title, copy her first original book and take all the credit for the harry potter story?? think about it.

 

[Gharib]

I will now present:
3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

very beautiful verse enlgand. but you know you have to explain what i'm looking for. and insha'allah i will answer and make clear to you that which isn't.

 

[Breathe]

what if you are viewing it from behind and not infront? if you look at it from behind, it does look like the quran was copied from the bible, but if you look at it from the front, you'd expect an author to know about all the novels he's written, wouldn't you?

Indeed. However, this boils onto "Is there a God? Did God know of these? Were there really prophets?" - without proof, these are all baseless claims.

It's like, why should any non-Muslim be expected to believe that the Qur'an came first, or God wrote them? It's like expecting you as a Muslim to believe that the Book of Mormon was written by the descendents of Israelites in America. You're not going to believe it no matter how many times it's mentioned to you. Without the proof, ultimately, it's a matter of faith - and faith doesn't really come into it here. The Qur'an came after the Bible, that's a fact - that's how people see the Qur'an as copying from the Bible.

well yeah most are similar, appart from the ones that have been changed by man's own hand.

Tahrif is an interesting subject. Probably not the thread for it really, but I'd like to hear why Muslims believe that the Bible is so changed that it's unreliable.

yes i do understand how a non muslim would see it, can't blame anyone for it.

Hehe, yeah.

if you compare the bible and quran, it automatically goes "the quran is a copy of the bible with slight modification".
if you compare the bible and torah, it automatically goes "the bible is a copy of the torah with slight modification".

And if you ask an atheist, Ancient Near-East historical scholar, it automatically goes "The Torah is a copy of the beliefs of local tribes and religions with a slight modification".

if you ask a jew about the bible they'll say it's a copy of the torah, if you ask a chrristian, they'll say, it is from the same god hence the similarities. it's the same with the quran. Allah says in the quran that it (the quran) is a confirmation of the previous revelations. you decide.

However, that's using the Qur'an to prove the Qur'an. Only Muhammad heard these messages, and that's what makes it difficult for some. There are 40 authors/prophets who are traditionally supposed to have written the Bible (though I don't believe that, lol. I believe there were far more humans who wrote it.) - it's hard to get even 40 people to agree on anything, much less when they're spread out all over the place and at different times.

With the Qur'an, it was revealed by only one person. If we take that it is not a holy, divinely inspired thing, it still makes it easier to have less errors in - because one person revealed it (and it's a lot shorter than the Bible, really ). As well as the Uthman collection and him burning all the variant (is that the correct word?) manuscripts of the Qur'an...

Apparently, other people saw the angel Gabriel (and mistook him as a human), did they not? Was there any proof (besides the Qur'an) that Muhammad actually was who he said he was?

 

[YmirGF]

alright Ymir. i did want to ignore you (you know very well why) but since you are offering to go through it, no problem with me. i have nothing to loose nor gain.

after you read this post, please go open a thread in the one on one debate section. if you agree to go through with this. i don't want anyone else to interfere.

if i had no idea what i was talking about, then why offer to go through with it?
choose your words carefully, you are contradicting youself.

and lastly, you know nothing about Allah so please don't ever say things about him which you know not.

It is done, child. Let the games begin.
Eselam & Ymir: Homosexuality

I completely assure you, Eselam, any contradiction exists only within your mind. Think of me as a veterenarian who is about to put a sick animals out of its misery. That is the only reason I am offering my services. It is suggested that you choose your words with extreme care, as I will give you no quarter, whatsoever.

 

[Gharib]

Indeed. However, this boils onto "Is there a God? Did God know of these? Were there really prophets?" - without proof, these are all baseless claims.

well christians, jews and muslims all believe there is a god and that there really were prophets sent from god. i guess this is where we kick the non muslims,non jews, and non christians out. lol

It's like, why should any non-Muslim be expected to believe that the Qur'an came first, or God wrote them?

the quran came last. god didn't writte them, man did. god only authored them.

It's like expecting you as a Muslim to believe that the Book of Mormon was written by the descendents of Israelites in America. You're not going to believe it no matter how many times it's mentioned to you. Without the proof, ultimately, it's a matter of faith - and faith doesn't really come into it here.

no proof does. in the Quran Allah says that if it (the quran) was from anyone other than god, surely many errors would be found there (something like that). we just apply this to ALL the scriptures.

The Qur'an came after the Bible, that's a fact - that's how people see the Qur'an as copying from the Bible.

yeah but if i was to right a book then wrote another one after a while, same title same material appart from this latter one being for a different audience how is the latter book a copy of the first one when they are from the same source even though they are different in some little way?

Tahrif is an interesting subject. Probably not the thread for it really, but I'd like to hear why Muslims believe that the Bible is so changed that it's unreliable.

well i can tell you that the present day bible is a reliable source to muslims concerning some things. the quran doesn't say how many companions jesus had, but the bible does. so we use what the bible says. but even if the bible hadn't been altered, the quran would be our book, not the bible. the bible was for the people of jesus.

And if you ask an atheist, Ancient Near-East historical scholar, it automatically goes "The Torah is a copy of the beliefs of local tribes and religions with a slight modification".

exactly the list goes on and on. this is a copy of that and that is a copy of this etc etc. not taking into consideration that they all claim to be from the very same god.

However, that's using the Qur'an to prove the Qur'an. Only Muhammad heard these messages, and that's what makes it difficult for some. There are 40 authors/prophets who are traditionally supposed to have written the Bible (though I don't believe that, lol. I believe there were far more humans who wrote it.) - it's hard to get even 40 people to agree on anything, much less when they're spread out all over the place and at different times.

With the Qur'an, it was revealed by only one person. If we take that it is not a holy, divinely inspired thing, it still makes it easier to have less errors in - because one person revealed it (and it's a lot shorter than the Bible, really ). As well as the Uthman collection and him burning all the variant (is that the correct word?) manuscripts of the Qur'an...

first it was Abu Bakr (ra) who gathered all the written bits of the quran from the people who had written some verses on some paper or cloth and after having the written stuff checked by a hafidh (a person who knows the whole quran by heart) he ordered that all the previous written verses to be destroyed and made a whole quran rather than just have some verses here and there. but due to the present arabic language (alphabet) being hard for non arab muslims, Uthman (ra) ordered that they make their alphabet easy so that a non arab muslim would be able to read arabic even though they do not understand the language. so he destroyed the qurans made by Abu Bakr (ra) due to them being written in the old alphabet. and had 7 new qurans written in the simplified arabic language. the language the i now can read but cannot understand. that was Uthmans (ra) goal. may Allah be pleased with both of them.

Apparently, other people saw the angel Gabriel (and mistook him as a human), did they not?

they did due to his transformation into a human by the will of Allah (swt).

Was there any proof (besides the Qur'an) that Muhammad actually was who he said he was?

many. there is the story of Abu Sufyan (was still a non muslim) who had a conversation with Heraclius.

there was the time when Muhamed (saws) returned from the Miraj (night journey) and was asked a few questions about it by Abu Sufyan (he was still a non muslim) and many other non muslims.

there are many other cases, these are just the ones out of the top off my head.

 

[Gharib]

It is done, child. Let the games begin.
Eselam & Ymir: Homosexuality

I completely assure you, Eselam, any contradiction exists only within your mind. Think of me as a veterenarian who is about to put a sick animals out of its misery. That is the only reason I am offering my services. It is suggested that you choose your words with extreme care, as I will give you no quarter, whatsoever.

are you sure you are only doing this because you think i'm wrong? or are you doing it because you know what i have said is true and may very well be correct?

Nonetheless, lets continue in the other thread.

 

[England my lionheart]

What are you trying to quote here friennd?

Forgive the delay,i forgot to sign out earlier.

3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
Why would a supreme being send down multi meaning or allegorical verses

Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.
Well we can see this in action in some countries,so why not make things clearer,like Christians have many branches like Baptist etc Islam has 73 sects,so if the message was indeed clear and unambiguous there should be but one.

None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

So nobody understands the allegorical or ambiguous verses except God and those well founded in knowledge,what kind of knowledge,is it exclusive,does every Muslim understand these verses.

 

[England my lionheart]

The Qur'an was sent down:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. (alkitabi almubeenu)" [12:1] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) " [26:2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear; (kitabin mubeenin)" [27:1] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) " [28:2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"By the Book that makes things clear,- (Waalkitabi almubeeni)" [43:2, 44:2][/FONT]

But we read:
3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.

 

[Gharib]

Forgive the delay,i forgot to sign out earlier.

3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
Why would a supreme being send down multi meaning or allegorical verses

the multiple meaning verses are another miracle of the quran. it just shows that the quran was authored by a very intelegent and learned being and not prophet Muhammed (saws) who was illiterate.

the musltiple meaning verse are there so that only the learned should explain the meaning of the verses. not every common man. lets take you for example. you can't explain why Allah has said that there are multi meaning verses in the quran, so what if you were asked to explain a multi meaning verse?

Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.
Well we can see this in action in some countries,so why not make things clearer,like Christians have many branches like Baptist etc Islam has 73 sects,so if the message was indeed clear and unambiguous there should be but one.

thats not where sects come from. sects come from corruption. from disbelief, from improper belief. thats just concerning the meaning of the verse, and so who has a greater knowledge knows what the meaning of the verse is. but has also allowed other learned men to give their understanding. thats what the 4 schools of thought are, the hanafi, the maliki, the shafii and the hanbali (don't know if there are more) each of these scholars had their own understanding of the verses which differed from each other but still they are all valid. all are true.

None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

So nobody understands the allegorical or ambiguous verses except God and those well founded in knowledge,what kind of knowledge,is it exclusive,does every Muslim understand these verses.

that knowledge would be the knowledge of a scholar. inherited from the prophet. the scholars of islam are the inheritants of the prophets knowledge. thats why only scholars explain and comment on the quran. not me, not you, nor any other unlearned person.

why do you think this is a contradiction?

 

[England my lionheart]

the multiple meaning verses are another miracle of the quran. it just shows that the quran was authored by a very intelegent and learned being and not prophet Muhammed (saws) who was illiterate.

Being illiterate does not make somebody stupid and take a look at the lirerary world,there are plenty of allegorical novels and poetry.

the musltiple meaning verse are there so that only the learned should explain the meaning of the verses. not every common man. lets take you for example. you can't explain why Allah has said that there are multi meaning verses in the quran, so what if you were asked to explain a multi meaning verse?

Well i would use one of the multi meanings


thats not where sects come from. sects come from corruption. from disbelief, from improper belief. thats just concerning the meaning of the verse, and so who has a greater knowledge knows what the meaning of the verse is. but has also allowed other learned men to give their understanding. thats what the 4 schools of thought are, the hanafi, the maliki, the shafii and the hanbali (don't know if there are more) each of these scholars had their own understanding of the verses which differed from each other but still they are all valid. all are true.

So out of 1.6 billion Muslims how many have the correct possible meaning


that knowledge would be the knowledge of a scholar. inherited from the prophet. the scholars of islam are the inheritants of the prophets knowledge. thats why only scholars explain and comment on the quran. not me, not you, nor any other unlearned person.

why do you think this is a contradiction?

Its a contradiction,the Qur'an was sent down to make things clear,oh oh its not clear at all because some verses are ambiguous with more that one meaning or interpretation.

 

[syberpriend]

Being illiterate does not make somebody stupid and take a look at the lirerary world,there are plenty of allegorical novels and poetry.
Brother, it means, the author is not Prophet Muhammad, though he commanded to write in his own time,rather thn learned by heart among his companions. illiterate , the reason is not this that he cannot say poetry or anything, means he never read or studied to say things mention in Quran, like the incidents happene earlier,in the times of Moses, Abraham, Noah,and others. He never studied geology, any field of science, yet its mention in Quran, whether u believe its 100% accurate as per modern science, no scientist ever denied the fields mention in Quran, contradictingor 100% against science. isnt this a miracle 1400 yrs ago, when arabia was arrogant and ignorant nation?


So out of 1.6 billion Muslims how many have the correct possible meaning

As some ppl say, there is 73 sects in Islam, Prophet Muhammad also predicted for that, but he didnt acknowledge it, he condemn it, that among my ppl, there will be some who will go away from teachings, now this is due to some political reasons, some material gains etc etc, the correctsect is the 1 ,who totaly follow Quran, and the sayingsand teachings of Prophet Muhammad.

Its a contradiction,the Qur'an was sent down to make things clear,oh oh its not clear at all because some verses are ambiguous with more that one meaning or interpretation.

Can you please quote me the verses once more which u think having multiple meanings and contraditing? I will try best to explain brother

 

[Breathe]

Brother, it means, the author is not Prophet Muhammad,

Why does Muhammad being illiterate mean that Muhammad could not have authored the Qur'an?

illiterate , the reason is not this that he cannot say poetry or anything,

Why does Muhammad's iliteracy mean that Muhammad would have been unable to make a poem, or make something that rhymes, or sings? It seems to me to be rather naïve to believe that just because one cannot read or write that they are unable to say something beautiful.

means he never read or studied to say things mention in Quran, like the incidents happene earlier,in the times of Moses, Abraham, Noah,and others.

But he could have heard about them, and most likely did. He knew Christians and Jews alike before he became the prophet of Islam - therefore it's equally possible that Muhammad knew of the stories to some degree. Muhammad could easily have had a lot of interest in religions and philosophical matters, and liked hearing the stories of those of other religions - he could have seen things he disagreed with in pre-Islamic Arabian polytheism, and saw more beauty and truth in the way the Christians and Jews behaved and in their theology before deciding to adopt it..

 

[YmirGF]

no scientist ever denied the fields mention in Quran, contradicting or 100% against science. isn't this a miracle 1400 yrs ago, when Arabia was arrogant and ignorant nation?

Actually, the truth is that science, on the whole, doesn't consider the so-called "scientific miracles in the Qur'an" arguments to be worthy of responses. That is one reason why scientists ignore the drivel of this kind of thinking. A second and more important reason is what scientist, in their right mind, would make themselves a lightning rod for fanatical Muslims to use as their latest target?
My guess is slim to none and that those scientists have far more interesting, far less risky, things too do.

How did these so-called "scientific miracles" get into the Qur'an? That's simple. They are simply not there to begin with, so it's a wild goose chase, right from the get go.

the correct sect is the 1, who totally follow Quran, and the sayings and teachings of Prophet Muhammad.

and no doubt, just by chance, you happen to be one of the "correct" sect members.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote:Syberpriend

Can you please quote me the verses once more which u think having multiple meanings and contraditing? I will try best to explain brother

The Qur'an states that the Mutashabihat Ayat have multiple meanings,to understand or interpret these you would need to have the knowledge that Eselam spoke of.
This is a contradiction to These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) " [26:2]

 

[Gharib]

Why does Muhammad being illiterate mean that Muhammad could not have authored the Qur'an?

the pagan arabs used to call the quran a poem. but Muhamed (saws) never had anything to do with poetry. his childhood years were spent as a shepherd then he became a merchant.

Why does Muhammad's iliteracy mean that Muhammad would have been unable to make a poem, or make something that rhymes, or sings? It seems to me to be rather naïve to believe that just because one cannot read or write that they are unable to say something beautiful.

thats not what is meant when we say he was iliterate. he may have been iliterate but he was the smartest man alive. he knew everything that Allah wanted him to know, Gabriel was his teacher and mesenger from Allah to Muhamed (saws).

But he could have heard about them, and most likely did. He knew Christians and Jews alike before he became the prophet of Islam - therefore it's equally possible that Muhammad knew of the stories to some degree. Muhammad could easily have had a lot of interest in religions and philosophical matters, and liked hearing the stories of those of other religions - he could have seen things he disagreed with in pre-Islamic Arabian polytheism, and saw more beauty and truth in the way the Christians and Jews behaved and in their theology before deciding to adopt it..

unfortunately no one can really prove that he did or did not speak with the jews and chrisitans about their faiths.

 

[Gharib]

Quote:Syberpriend

Can you please quote me the verses once more which u think having multiple meanings and contraditing? I will try best to explain brother

The Qur'an states that the Mutashabihat Ayat have multiple meanings,to understand or interpret these you would need to have the knowledge that Eselam spoke of.
This is a contradiction to These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) " [26:2]

it has made things easy. you are blaming the quran for something that man is responsible. if you don't know hot to read then why blame the book for being a book? Allah doesn't say that no one can know the meanings of those verses, he says learned people can. so all you need to do is learn. gain some knowledge.

 

[Bismillah]

Yet I've shown you articles that point out the differences in the brains of homosexuals and their conclusion that homosexuality is certainly not a choice.

Friend, then what about that thorny study that found that only 50% o fthe time were identical twins both homosexual. Why the dissimilarity then? If homosexuality is definitely influenced by the brain, then twins who have the exact same brain both be homosexual? The only reasonable inference then is that Genetics plays little to no role at all in determining homosexuality. Rather I could use this as evidence for the environmental upbringing. The way a person thinks and views the world is dependent on axonal connections. The two twins have the same set of neurons, but then why do they think differently? It is because of how the two were influenced in their childhood. When a particular neuron is used the axonal connection is strengthened. When a neuron, or perspective, is neglected that neuron's connection is less frequently used and the neuron is later eliminated. The two brothers were influenced by their environment to chose certain paths of thoughts, neurons, over others and this led to the establishment of their gender preferences.