The worldly boring Paradise of Quran

[Trailblazer]

I don’t understand this thread to be honest. I mean if you look into what Allah told us about our purpose in this life and our life after we die, Its very simple.
if there are 2 places where we are gonna be after resurrection , which is heaven and hell. Then logically it doesn’t matter if heaven is boring or not because it will still be a better place then hell.

Do you believe, like Christians, that heaven and hell are 'places' where we go after death of the body?

I do not believe that. I believe that after we die our souls leave the body and we get a new body which is a spiritual body.
The transformation from a physical body to a spiritual body is the resurrection.

The souls who knew God and are close to God will be in a heavenly state and the souls who did not know God and are far from God will be in a hellish state. Souls who were faithful to God and reflected His light will he in heaven. Souls who instead became victims to self and passion, will sink in the depths of self and passion. This is hell.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

However, I don't think it is quite that simple. I don't think it is black and white, either heaven or hell. I think there will be states of the soul that are on a continuum between heaven and hell. I also believe that God can choose to allow into heaven anyone He so chooses. We always have hope of receiving God's mercy if we reach out for it.

I do not know what heaven will be like, nobody knows that, but I don't think it will be boring.
I hate being bored so I do wonder what I will be 'doing' for all of eternity.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Do you believe, like Christians, that heaven and hell are 'places' where we go after death of the body?

Wel believe hell and heaven are places which is created by god

I do not believe that. I believe that after we die our souls leave the body and we get a new body which is a spiritual body.
The transformation from a physical body to a spiritual body is the resurrection.

Our souls will be resurrected with the body which we lived on earth or something similar to that.

Also the reason why I am saying it is simple is because this topic is about the unseen world.
You would agree with me that the only one that knows for sure is the creator, the all knowing Allah.
So we can speculate how heaven could look like but thats all guess work. So better to go what god has explicit told us and if he didn’t told us then we should accept that he knows best.

I do not know what heaven will be like, nobody knows that, but I don't think it will be boring.
I hate being bored so I do wonder what I will be 'doing' for all of eternity.

God has his reasons why some information he didn’t told us. We can only accept what he did told us is enough to pass the test he has given to us

 

[Trailblazer]

You would agree with me that the only one that knows for sure is the creator, the all knowing Allah.
So we can speculate how heaven could look like but thats all guess work. So better to go what god has explicit told us and if he didn’t told us then we should accept that he knows best.

God has his reasons why some information he didn’t told us. We can only accept what he did told us is enough to pass the test he has given to us

Yes, I agree with all of that. We cannot know what heaven will be like and there are reasons why God has not revealed that to us.
One reason is that it is so different from this world so it is impossible to describe.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

Another reason is that if we knew we would not want to remain one more minute on this earth.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Yes, I agree with all of that.

Right so we can speculate on things but god told us that there is heaven and hell, that’s a fact

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Yes, I agree with all of that.

Right so we can speculate on things but god told us that there is heaven and earth, that’s a fact

 

[Link]

I don’t understand this thread to be honest. I mean if you look into what Allah told us about our purpose in this life and our life after we die, Its very simple.
if there are 2 places where we are gonna be after resurrection , which is heaven and hell. Then logically it doesn’t matter if heaven is boring or not because it will still be a better place then hell.

Salam

If you read the sermon of disparagement, it talks about reward being more meaningful with trials of this world, the harder they are, the more intense the reward. This world and relationship to the next is unseen. It's hard to put to words. But without the trials and if heaven was a guarantee or the trial made too easy that none would go astray, then the rewards would not be as intense as they are. This means that most of heaven is not about material pleasure, but the spiritual pleasure. We can say the drinks and fruits and even sex there will take on spiritual form depending on our actions.

The material is there to interact with others who are higher or lower states then us, but the reward is more about what is inwardly experienced.

The bright pure women of paradise emphasized to be bright and pure, can, be indication, that there is a spiritual role they play in returning to God and that we play with them to help them journey to God.

Otherwise, if purely material pleasures and no spiritual states, the question would be, why couldn't God made the trial easy so all would go to paradise or that there was a guarantee of paradise.

 

[Link]

Salam

This is the sermon I am talking about: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-bal...be-allah-who-wears-apparel-honour-and-dignity

 

[Trailblazer]

If you read the sermon of disparagement, it talks about reward being more meaningful with trials of this world, the harder they are, the more intense the reward.

I sure hope so!

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Do you see the big big contradiction?

It is not contradiction. It is parallel of value.

As the Quran speaks highly of palaces, and it also speaks lowly of tents. So there are palaces in paradise, and there are tents in Hell:

"Shame is pitched over them (Like a tent) wherever they are found, except when under a covenant (of protection) from Allah and from men; they draw on themselves wrath from Allah, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right; this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds".

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!".


It is speaking in parallel measurements of what people value. As it said above "like a tent", and also said "like melted brass", rather than saying either silver, or gold which are also mentioned in the Quran. Brass is lower in value, like a tent is lower than a palace, or a house.

Perhaps virgins are thought of as having high value too. The Quran speaks of different sorts of fruits.

The words of value are words of judgement.

 

[stevecanuck]

It is not contradiction. It is parallel of value.

As the Quran speaks highly of palaces, and it also speaks lowly of tents. So there are palaces in paradise, and there are tents in Hell:

"Shame is pitched over them (Like a tent) wherever they are found, except when under a covenant (of protection) from Allah and from men; they draw on themselves wrath from Allah, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right; this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds".

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!".


It is speaking in parallel measurements of what people value. As it said above "like a tent", and also said "like melted brass", rather than saying either silver, or gold which are also mentioned in the Quran. Brass is lower in value, like a tent is lower than a palace, or a house.

Perhaps virgins are thought of as having high value too. The Quran speaks of different sorts of fruits.

The words of value are words of judgement.

Yeah, the word 'tent' is not used in the Qur'an. Those references are editorial add-ons used by some interpreters.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yeah, the word 'tent' is not used in the Qur'an. Those references are editorial add-ons used by some interpreters.

Are you implying "tent" is wrong?
Other interpretations of 18:29 say walls, or curtains, or pavilion (a large tent).

The Bible can support confirmation of the Qurans "tents" of Hell. As the tents of wickedness:

"For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness". Psalm.

As those that dwell in tents have cattle:
"And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle". Genesis.

And cattle are also connected to Hell in the Quran:

"And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water",- 19:86

"Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)". 7:179.

The Bible talks about judging between cattle, goats, and sheep. Cattle is of lowest value, as tent value.

The "tents" of hell concept can be supported with evidence.

 

[stevecanuck]

Are you implying "tent" is wrong?
Other interpretations of 18:29 say walls, or curtains, or pavilion (a large tent).

It's a simple simile. Like when mountains are said to be like tent pegs. You read way too much into it.

The Bible can support confirmation of the Qurans "tents" of Hell. As the tents of wickedness:

"For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness". Psalm.

As those that dwell in tents have cattle:
"And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle". Genesis.

And cattle are also connected to Hell in the Quran:

"And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water",- 19:86

"Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)". 7:179.

The Bible talks about judging between cattle, goats, and sheep. Cattle is of lowest value, as tent value.

The "tents" of hell concept can be supported with evidence.

Okay. Bye now.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It's a simple simile. Like when mountains are said to be like tent pegs. You read way too much into it.



Okay. Bye now.

Like as in these tent pegs:

"Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;". Isaiah.

Consider the tent that is pegged with the strength of the mountains.

Bye.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Having the palaces in paradise, and the tents in hell:

The "House of God" can be seen between them.

Tent - House - Palace.



As I showed before what Muhammad said. The tent of hell has brass value, and is said as being an uncomfortable couch to recline on.

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!".

While here Muhammad says the house is as silver value, and has a throne to recline on:

"And (silver) doors to their houses, and thrones (of silver) on which they could recline".


It is because a house is worth more than a tent, and silver is worth more than brass, and a throne is worth more than an uncomfortable couch.

While a palace has highest value. Gold value.



But considering the value of a house, especially one adorned with gold like Muhammad said:

"Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"

As being as Jesus said:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you".


The "house" of God could be considered as being the middle ground.

The house of God being the place between the tents in hell and the palaces in paradise.