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Theism Doesn't Ultimately Explain Anything

PureX

Veteran Member
To simply say cognition transcends the physical in no way proves or demonstrates that it does. I would argue that the evidence clearly shows that cognition is wholly dependent on the physical makeup and function of the central nervous system.
Transcendence does not require independence from it's origin. It is defined by the array of possibilities it manifests that did not otherwise exist. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. That is, the resultant possibilities presented by the whole transcends the possibilities offered by any and all of the individual parts. Configuration generates the new phenomena. Not the constituent materials. This is the failure of the materialist philosophy.
To hypothesize about what may be discovered in the unknown in any meaningful way, it would be based on extrapolating from what is know. To assert that something exists beyond our ability to verify it is meaningless, since we can assert an infinite number of imagined and untrue things.
Yes, we can. And any of them could be true, or untrue. That is the inevitable result of our unknowing. We must extrapolate from our limited experience and intellect, because we have no other choice. But this does not make our doing so a pathway to truth. And we need to understand this. Most of us do understand it. But there are a few, but increasing number of us that have fallen into "scientism"; thinking that via the scientific method, we have gained a new pathway to truth. We have not. We have only gained a better pathway to understanding physical functionality. And physical function is only a part of the truth (of 'what is'). Philosophical materialism then tries to assert that physical functionality is the whole of 'what is', and is therefor the only truth worth pursuing. That anything else is simply meaningless fantasy. This is a false and very dangerous intellectual path for we humans to enjoin, as it denies the essence of humanity, and drives us to very inhumane behavior.
Many small group/pack mammalian species compete between same-species groups. If any were to aggregate in the numbers that we do, maybe you would see similar behavior. To be a good scientist and draw sound conclusions you need to look at all the variables.
There are no other life forms threatening to wipe themselves out.
I'm not sure what you mean by cognitive transcendence. If it is your personal hypothesis, I would need the terms definition and some supporting evidence or examples to evaluate it.
As soon as you stop presuming that 'transcendence' requires non-dependence on it's source you will be able to understand and recognize cognition as the transcendent phenomenon that it is.
Yes, we think, we imagine, we have cognition. None of that is in any other realm that the physical reality in which we exist. What you think and imagine is the express product of your unique central nervous system.
"Product of", and yet transcendent of. Because it generates a whole new realm of possibility that did not and does not otherwise exist.
As described above, cognition is intimately tied and dependent on your physical makeup and your experiences.
Dependence is irrelevant. Your argument is based on this point, and this point is not relevant. Until you let go of it, you will not be able to grasp the idea of phenomenological transcendence.
No other realm is required to explain what we observe, and the creation of one does not fit with what we observe.
It's not about "explanation", it's about existential possibility.
Any thoughts, ideas, or imaginings that reside in your head, are trapped there unless you physically share them in some way. They have no reality outside of that.
Look at any city on Earth, and try to tell yourself that, again.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Ahlulbaytt (a) emphasized "who knows himself/herself knows their Lord" and that in that knowledge lied knowing God. They as far as I am aware never referred to first cause as an argument nor design, but I maybe wrong on that. They mostly emphasized on looking inward and in that knowledge, is the knowledge of certainty, religion, and day of judgment as well.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually theism explains everything.

Just not very convincingly.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
And this statement simply does not match with what we observe. Human beings are the product of continual improvement. One merely has to look at the whole of human history to see this.
All the terms you use like "improvement", "better" "flawed" you speak like they're objective but aren't they subjective?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
All the terms you use like "improvement", "better" "flawed" you speak like they're objective but aren't they subjective?
Once there is inter-subjective agreement on a subjective goal or standard, one can certainly speak objectively about progress or compliance.
 
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Jos

Well-Known Member
Once there is inter-subjective agreement on a subjective goal or standard, one can certainly speak objectively about progress or compliance.
That's fair. Also you said in another post that there is no inherent purpose but what difference is there between an inherent purpose that we don't know about and there being no purpose at all?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's fair. Also you said in another post that there is no inherent purpose but what difference is there between an inherent purpose that we don't know about and there being no purpose at all?
Purpose, to me, seems to require two elements. 1.) It requires a subject, a thing, that has the property 'purpose', or rather, to which a 'purpose' is assigned. We can label this the Subject. 2.) There is required a sentient entity who subjectively assigns the purpose to the thing or subject. Perhaps we can call this entity the Assigner of Purpose, or simply, the Assigner.

For there to be a purpose, the Subject must exist and the Assigner must exist. Without either or both elements, we can safely conclude that there is no purpose at all. As a side note, the Subject and Assigner can refer to the same entity.

Now we may have a Subject that, to us, subjectively appears to have one or more purposes based on our assessment of its characteristics, but we do not have a declaration from the Assigner as to the Assigner's subjective purpose for the object. The first issue will be to establish a connection between the Subject and a specific Assigner. If this cannot be done, then we cannot attribute purpose from that Assigner. If we can establish a connection between a specific Assigner, but the Assigner cannot or will not declare the purpose, we, at that point, can only infer from what we know about the Subject and the Assigner, what purpose/s might have been assigned. Absent a declaration from the Assigner, we cannot definitively know the Assigner's purpose, we can only make an educated guess. The value of that guess will vary widely as it is dependent on what can be know of the Subject and the Assigner. And, as always, just because there is an association between Subject and Assigner, it is possible that the Assigner has assigned no purpose to the Subject.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
As to my "glass half empty" perspective, I come from a personal experience. I was an alcoholic for many years, and know first hand how possible it is to "have a choice" in theory, but have no apparent choice at all, in actual practice; regardless of determination or desire. So I am very reluctant to presume that other people are simply choosing not to face their own profound ignorance head on, as opposed to being quite literally and actually unable to do so. I can't really say, either way, because of my own profound ignorance regarding the intellectual and emotional machinations of my fellow humans, but I have good reason, personally, not to endow them with choices that they may well not actually possess.
You continue to contradict yourself with your thoughts. You've repeatedly, in the past to the present, talk about acknowledging your ignorance(unknown) regarding reality. But then immediately after that, you contradict yourself by dismissing that ignorance by giving your thoughts about reality.

This is why everytime you talk about the "unknown," it's meaningless.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
As a side note, the Subject and Assigner can refer to the same entity.
How can they be the same entity?

Now we may have a Subject that, to us, subjectively appears to have one or more purposes based on our assessment of its characteristics, but we do not have a declaration from the Assigner as to the Assigner's subjective purpose for the object. The first issue will be to establish a connection between the Subject and a specific Assigner. If this cannot be done, then we cannot attribute purpose from that Assigner. If we can establish a connection between a specific Assigner, but the Assigner cannot or will not declare the purpose, we, at that point, can only infer from what we know about the Subject and the Assigner, what purpose/s might have been assigned. Absent a declaration from the Assigner, we cannot definitively know the Assigner's purpose, we can only make an educated guess. The value of that guess will vary widely as it is dependent on what can be know of the Subject and the Assigner. And, as always, just because there is an association between Subject and Assigner, it is possible that the Assigner has assigned no purpose to the Subject.
This is interesting, so what about evolution? It seems to be a mindless process with no intentions or goals yet our body parts seem to have purposes. What's your take on that conundrum? If it's mindless then it can't assign purpose yet our eyes for example, seem to have been designed for the purpose of sight.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You continue to contradict yourself with your thoughts. You've repeatedly, in the past to the present, talk about acknowledging your ignorance(unknown) regarding reality. But then immediately after that, you contradict yourself by dismissing that ignorance by giving your thoughts about reality.

This is why everytime you talk about the "unknown," it's meaningless.
We all have opinions regardless of our ignorance. What about that do you find so "contradictory"? Now, if I were asserting my opinions as absolute truth, then I would be contradicting myself. But I'm not, and I have not.

I think you're just looking for some excuse to disregard my opinions.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
We all have opinions regardless of our ignorance. What about that do you find so "contradictory"? Now, if I were asserting my opinions as absolute truth, then I would be contradicting myself. But I'm not, and I have not.
Hahaha. Your attempt at defending your contradiction consists of you contradicting yourself. So according to you, your opinions can and cannot contradict your opinions. ;)

You sound like some of the religious theists in here who, when failed to defend their position, they say, "It's only my beliefs." And you say, "It's only my opinions."

I think you're just looking for some excuse to disregard my opinions.
So is this your version of, "You just want to sin." :D:D

And you're wrong again. I'm not looking for excuses to disregard your opinions because I already found them to be fallacious before this thread was started.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
What's the difference between presupposing God is ontologically necessary and simply presupposing the cosmos is ontologically necessary (if one were inclined to do that)?

Well, some apologists presented arguments against the possibility that the physical cosmos is metaphysically necessary. For example, the argument from limits, Josh Rasmussen's geometrical argument, the conceivability argument, and Robert Koons' epistemic argument. (I address two of these arguments here: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing? )

It is not like apologists are simply "presupposing" only God can be necessary. They try to justify this assertion. :)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, some apologists presented arguments against the possibility that the physical cosmos is metaphysically necessary. For example, the argument from limits, Josh Rasmussen's geometrical argument, the conceivability argument, and Robert Koons' epistemic argument. (I address two of these arguments here: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing? )

It is not like apologists are simply "presupposing" only God can be necessary. They try to justify this assertion. :)

Thanks for this link, I'll be reading it here over the next hour or so.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, some apologists presented arguments against the possibility that the physical cosmos is metaphysically necessary. For example, the argument from limits, Josh Rasmussen's geometrical argument, the conceivability argument, and Robert Koons' epistemic argument. (I address two of these arguments here: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing? )

It is not like apologists are simply "presupposing" only God can be necessary. They try to justify this assertion. :)

Oof. This is going to take more than an hour. I'm interested in Swinburne's views that abstractions don't exist outside of language structure because I disagree; but that's going to entail going down that rabbit hole, along with Carrier.

Also when we get down to modal axiom S5, is there a defense for why the possibly necessary thing must be a being? S5 is abused by so many modal arguments like Plantinga's that sneak in these assumptions. Plantinga told me himself once that he did not care for his own modal ontological argument -- in his words, "this is because the conclusion is too close to the premises."

Edit: I'm saving this link though, I enjoyed reading this. I'll catch up on Swinburne probably tomorrow. I have a lot of plot-making to do and will be posting casually, but this I'd like to pay attention to.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
is there a defense for why the possibly necessary thing must be a being?

Well, if by "being" you mean an "existent" (contrary to a proposition), then yes; there is an argument. Quote:

"Consider the proposition that one and one make two. ...This proposition is necessarily true. But something cannot be necessarily true unless it necessarily exists. For suppose it could fail to exist. Then, since non-existent things cannot be anything, it follows that it could fail to be true. But it’s necessarily true; it couldn’t fail to be true. Hence, it necessarily exists. [For an argument from the necessary truth of propositions to their necessary existence, see Rasmussen (2013)." Source: Joe Schmid, 2021, p.75.

Plantinga told me himself once that he did not care for his own modal ontological argument -- in his words, "this is because the conclusion is too close to the premises."

Wow, you talked to Plantinga? That's so cool! He is considered to be one of the most important theistic philosophers of religion alive. :)

I enjoyed reading this.

I'm glad to 'hear' that! :D
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, if by "being" you mean an "existent" (contrary to a proposition), then yes; there is an argument. Quote:

"Consider the proposition that one and one make two. ...This proposition is necessarily true. But something cannot be necessarily true unless it necessarily exists. For suppose it could fail to exist. Then, since non-existent things cannot be anything, it follows that it could fail to be true. But it’s necessarily true; it couldn’t fail to be true. Hence, it necessarily exists. [For an argument from the necessary truth of propositions to their necessary existence, see Rasmussen (2013)." Source: Joe Schmid, 2021, p.75.



Wow, you talked to Plantinga? That's so cool! He is considered to be one of the most important theistic philosophers of religion alive. :)



I'm glad to 'hear' that! :D

By being, I meant person or sentient thing: I am convinced that something necessarily exists. I am highly skeptical that anything that necessarily exists is a person.

As for Plantinga, I held a lot of discussions with him; but this isn’t anything crazy: I looked up his email from Notre Dame and just started discussions with him, and he would respond. We talked about his ontological argument, his Bayesian argument about cognitive faculties and evolution, and transworld depravity for a few months.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, if by "being" you mean an "existent" (contrary to a proposition), then yes; there is an argument. Quote:

"Consider the proposition that one and one make two. ...This proposition is necessarily true. But something cannot be necessarily true unless it necessarily exists. For suppose it could fail to exist. Then, since non-existent things cannot be anything, it follows that it could fail to be true. But it’s necessarily true; it couldn’t fail to be true. Hence, it necessarily exists. [For an argument from the necessary truth of propositions to their necessary existence, see Rasmussen (2013)." Source: Joe Schmid, 2021, p.75.



Wow, you talked to Plantinga? That's so cool! He is considered to be one of the most important theistic philosophers of religion alive. :)



I'm glad to 'hear' that! :D

I also presented Plantinga with an argument of my own to put him between a rock and a hard place on his free will defense and his skepticism about evolution.

I gave the life cycle of Plasmodium falciparum (malaria-causing apicomplexan), highlighted how it very specifically evaded the immune system, and then asked if Plantinga had an explanation for this “specified complexity”: if God was responsible, then the free will defense could not account for it; but if it could not account for it, then Plantinga must admit evolution can account for specified complexity.

His response? “Demons did it.” That’s paraphrased, of course. But it was the one response I found hilariously unsatisfactory.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
By being, I meant person or sentient thing: I am convinced that something necessarily exists. I am highly skeptical that anything that necessarily exists is a person.

Check out this video by Joe at 1:26:15 :


His response? “Demons did it.” That’s paraphrased, of course. But it was the one response I found hilariously unsatisfactory.

Lol. Yeah, the demon response is a classic one.

In any case, the free will response is silly if you think about it. As Prof. Oppy pointed out, God could simply limit people's freedom. It is not binary, "free will or no free will". Instead, we could have free will, but be limited so that we couldn't cause horrendous evil. Some even argue God has no free will. For example, he can't commit an evil act because of his nature (it is perfectly good). And if God -- who is perfect -- may have no free will, then why can't we as well?

So, Plantinga's use of the demon response would be useless given that his free will argument can't get off the ground. :)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Check out this video by Joe at 1:26:15 :


Thanks for this. Once I got to the third route to agency and saw it was just the teleological/design arguments I was like “pfff.”

So, I agreed with the offered objections to the first two routes. It seems like arguments for necessary agency are still pretty much grasping at straws.



Lol. Yeah, the demon response is a classic one.

In any case, the free will response is silly if you think about it. As Prof. Oppy pointed out, God could simply limit people's freedom. It is not binary, "free will or no free will". Instead, we could have free will, but be limited so that we couldn't cause horrendous evil. Some even argue God has no free will. For example, he can't commit an evil act because of his nature (it is perfectly good). And if God -- who is perfect -- may have no free will, then why can't we as well?

So, Plantinga's use of the demon response would be useless given that his free will argument can't get off the ground. :)

I didn’t expect it from Plantinga. Usually his responses were thoughtful and almost even self-deprecating in that he would offer his insights on their weaknesses. Then he was just like “well, maybe powerful non-human intelligences were responsible.”
 
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