Theological terrorists

[Aupmanyav]

.. that may happen to humanity if they forget God?
If there is no God, there is nothing for you to fear, they would be empty words.

All the threats that the pophets / sons / messengers / manifestations (Bahaollah implored Allah to give "terrible" punishment to people who did not accept his existence or the mission of Bahaollah - 'Allah's punishment is terrible' or something like that) / mahdis and their books mention are imaginary. There is no evidence - 'empty words' as you said.
Well, that is true. I never forget God, I implore people to discard their superstitions. The laws that one needs to respect are those of the government of one's country or society.

 

[Thief]

Same places as you........ lots of us came out of a huge star that burst, that the only way for our carbon to exist now.


Sure......... exactly the same point as the ducks in my garden, or the little hounds snoozing at my feet.


I was dust before, and look what happened to me, and so, instead of worrying about 'why' I'll drink to such a wondrous privilege given. I can acknowledge Theist's faiths but feel sad that they waste their lives over it all...... the sparrows don't.

without an afterlife in the scheme of things.....
there's not much ....point....
in the existence of Man

just chemistry
terminal
and a mystery with no purpose

no chance of anything after the last breath

is that how you see it?

 

[ppp]

without an afterlife in the scheme of things.....
there's not much ....point....
in the existence of Man

You are confusing duration with purpose and value. And afterlife does does not make a point. If your finite existence has no point, then your eternal existence is just an indefinite extension of zero.

 

[John D. Brey]

Got any proof of what you term as real?

Those two words, "proof," and "real," are really really slippery.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

That's a pretty big if, what's the evidence they are real?

"Evidence" is a pretty big problem since if something is self-evidently so, and yet even so, not believed, then the "evidence," provided for the unbeliever, would have to lift a stone larger than the "self-evident truth" itself could lift. Which seems similar to God making a rock so large even he couldn't lift it therein collapsing the omnipotence through which he made the rock so big.


John

 

[ppp]

"Evidence" is a pretty big problem since if something is self-evidently so, and yet even so, not believed, then the "evidence," provided for the unbeliever, would have to lift a stone larger than the "self-evident truth" itself could lift.

Can you provide an example of something that is "self-evident" yet unconnected to religious or supernatural claims?

 

[John D. Brey]

"Evidence" is a pretty big problem since if something is self-evidently so, and yet even so, not believed, then the "evidence," provided for the unbeliever, would have to lift a stone larger than the "self-evident truth" itself could lift.​

Can you provide an example of something that is "self-evident" yet unconnected to religious or supernatural claims?

On election night, President Trump appeared to be headed for a landslide win. He won the two bell-whether states that have been required to win the White House (Florida and Ohio), and was winning dozens of smaller bell-weather counties, counties that have always picked the winner. He had accumulated a higher vote count than in his win four years earlier (no President has lost an election where he gained more votes than his previous win), such that Vegas odds makers, going against the pre-election polling, realized Trump was going to win the election and win it big, such that they put their money where their careful data was.

And then, suddenly, they decided to close down counting for the night.

In the morning (with counting closed down for the night mind you), President Trump's lead had disappeared. Now he was losing in precisely those counties that would make the most difference if he'd won the bell-weather counties candidates always win in other elections.

Anyone watching these events live, and with an open mind, realizes that it's self-evidently true that the election was stolen.

Which means that if you don't believe the election was stolen, no amount of evidence is going to convince you of something that was self-evidently revealed but which you didn't see.

My point is an abstract, logical point: If something is self-evidently true, and someone who saw the evidence doesn't see it to be true, then all attempts and providing "more" evidence is like asking God to make a rock too big for him to lift.

If God can't make a rock so big he can't lift it he mustn't be omnipotent. If he can make a rock too big for him to lift it, he can't be omnipotent.

Asking for evidence of something that's self-evidently true is a similar ploy. There's no evidence that can make someone believe something they wouldn't believe even if they new it was true. Kinda like how many Democrats truly believed President Trump was a Russian Manchurian candidate even though they truly knew their total belief in that truth wasn't true belief.

Which opens up discussion to two kinds of beliefs. Beliefs that are true because if they're not we wouldn't believe it, versus beliefs that are truly subject to revision based on facts or so-called realities?

In the political example given above, it would be interesting to dissect the two political parties to see which party tends the most toward the first of the two kinds of beliefs?



John

 

[ppp]

Anyone watching these events live, and with an open mind, realizes that it's self-evidently true that the election was stolen.

It seems to me that you intentionally chose something political and necessarily controversial in order to avoid practical discussion. Probably because your position won't withstand a more grounded citation. Thanks for the illustration.

 

[John D. Brey]

It seems to me that you intentionally chose something political and necessarily controversial in order to avoid practical discussion. Probably because your position won't withstand a more grounded citation. Thanks for the illustration.

Perhaps it's true that a more grounded evaluation of the matter might realize that it's precisely in issues of politics, religion, ideology, where controversy is rampant, that the practicalities of expecting evidence to do heavy lifting that's too heavy for the reality of the controversy is like asking God to prove he's God by making a rock to heavy for him to lift?

Perhaps finding a criteria for truth that could put the lie to some people's sacred cows is too controversial a topic for civilized company. Perhaps the true good of American culture will go the way of all flesh when her populace are to civilized to fight for an unseemly truth.



John

 

[ppp]

Perhaps it's true that a more grounded evaluation of the matter

We'll never know, because you don't have one. Quit wasting my time. with this pointless posturing.

 

[oldbadger]

without an afterlife in the scheme of things.....
there's not much ....point....
in the existence of Man

just chemistry
terminal
and a mystery with no purpose

no chance of anything after the last breath

is that how you see it?

Hi....
And ... No, that's not how I see it.
There's life in every part of me now, and there will be when it's all broken apart.
Life never ends.
Well...... that's just how I see it.
But I sure do enjoy my days, every one, every moment. And I can only hope that you do as well.

 

[Thief]

You are confusing duration with purpose and value. And afterlife does does not make a point. If your finite existence has no point, then your eternal existence is just an indefinite extension of zero.

ok.....if your life has no point
and then you die
you follow your dust into the box....into the ground

and your soul is stuck there

you did not form yourself
you are not your own handiwork

and if nothing comes forth when your chemistry fails...
then yeah
you become an indefinite ....zero

 

[ppp]

ok.....if your life has no point
and then you die
you follow your dust into the box....into the ground

and your soul is stuck there

Not my problem. You're the one living the pointless life with the imaginary soul.

 

[Thief]

Not my problem. You're the one living the pointless life with the imaginary soul.

so you have resigned yourself to eternal darkness?

no form of light follows anyone into the grave

and no......you won't be a problem

 

[ppp]

so you have resigned yourself to eternal darkness

Without eternal life there is no eternal darkness. You're just desperate, son.

 

[Thief]

Without eternal life there is no eternal darkness. You're just desperate, son.

eternal darkness is physically real

I am not desperate

and neither are you

we are just headed to different forms of existence

your form will stop
mine will change

 

[ppp]

eternal darkness is physically real

I am not desperate

and neither are you

we are just headed to different forms of existence

your form will stop
mine will change

What's your goal here, son? If you are just announcing a list of stuff you believe, Congrats. If you are trying to get me to take you seriously, you are going in the wrong direction.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It means you are a victim of fear yourself to imagine others need saving from God's imagined hatred which would torture non-believers in endless horrors forever and ever. The threat you see, does not exist in God, only in your own fear-based imaginations, stoked by fear mongers who do not know love.

So Jesus Christ, who warned people of Hell and died to redeem people from Hell, was a "victim of fear, a fearmonger" and the chief of all fearmongers?

 

[BilliardsBall]

If your perceptions of danger are built on fairy dust then you are at the very least a nuisance. Possibly a hazard. And possibly a danger, yourself.

So most of all people who've ever lived--who believed in God and God's final judgment, are a danger?

Wow, it must be hard to live in the world asylum being run by the inmates!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

ROFLOL

Regards Tony

You probably misunderstand, and think I am excusing any and all misgivings or misdeeds with the systems as they stand now. That's not what my "actual work" statement was all about. It was about the idea that these systems are attempting to find and react to REAL WORLD evidence... not made up shenanigans and fantasy. "ACTUAL WORK" as in, it is real, based in our shared reality - in fact it HAS TO BE, because it is peers presenting justification to peers. Lawyers attempting to sway juries or judges, etc.

Within religion, the leaders just have to make something up, attribute it to "God" and then everyone is expected to listen/obey. Those that do not obey suffer social consequences like ostracization, or even being dragged out of church services. There is no "ACTUAL WORK" being done in any religion whose edicts come down from a deity to actually verify that those edicts come from a true and real source. NONE. Not one single speck of actual work in reality. The very best you have are thought exercise and philosophical meanderings. So go ahead and keep rolling on the floor... it is most certainly a better use of your time than practicing your religion at least. Freaking daffy.