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There is irrefutable evidence from Polonium halos that the rock layers of the Grand Canyon where all formed in a short time, the worldwide flood.

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Sorry but this is ignoring the techtonic plate upheaval that is clearly described in the bible flood account.

The point is, if the oceans are deeper the the elevation of the landmass this is a nonissue. Add to that another 70metres of coverage from ice and its a nonissue. We know that mountains such as Everest were not anything like the current elevation due to uplifting...thats obvious.

Yes, mountains weren't always mountains.
But you need them to form in less then 4000 years. The mountains of the world didn't form in just 4000 years. That is ridiculous.

So preflood...mountains weren't anything like what they are today and the landmass was significantly different.

Earth 4000 years ago looked almost exactly like earth today in terms of mountain regions.

I think you need to actually first study the bible account so you understand why your aegument is meaningless to YEC Christians.

Scientific arguments are meaningless to YECs because they don't care about science. They only care about rationalizing their a priori beliefs and will grasp at any straw to do so while handwaving away anything that they can't forcefit into it.

Oh btw,

According to Harvard University study, the mean elevation of the Earth is -2440metres Earth's Constant Mean Elevation: Implication for Long-Term Sea Level and Controlled by Ocean Lithosphere Dynamics in a Pitman World

That's below sea level...so if the oceans are on average 2km deeper than the landmass is high your entire argument would be fundamentaly problematic!

View attachment 87150View attachment 87151
Did you evenr read that article?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Many years ago I checked the book out of the library. It was titled Creation's Tiny Mystery.

The general theme is that there are burns in the rocks from a specific type of Polonium. These burns are called 'Radio halos'. As a Geologist Mr. Gentry's task is to explain how Polonium Halos could exist in granite, since it is believed that Granite takes a very, very long time to form while Polonium has a very, very short half life relatively speaking.

Granite takes a long time to form and cannot be made in a lab. Rhyolite is the closest thing that can be made in a lab, but the radio halos are in Granite. Therefore the polonium radio halos are a conundrum, which has yet to explain itself. We can project ideas and models, but the question is not answered until evidence forces a specific result.

If I recall correctly (25+ years ago) Mr. Gentry does not conclude that the Earth must be young, however he writes an entire book devoted to the question and puts Creation into the title. The book is popular with creationism fares and book sellers.

Why doesn't he conclude it? Because it wouldn't be scientific to do so. Dr. Gentry does go so far as to suggest they could be miraculous, but he stops there. Science is a discipline, and you don't make scientific conclusions unless the evidence compels it. The polonium halos do exist in the Granite, and they are a conundrum. They do not compel a conclusion of a young Earth; because there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Earth is not so young. Therefore the origin of the polonium halos are simply something not understood.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
But you need them to form in less then 4000 years. The mountains of the world didn't form in just 4000 years
Exactly...the bible says it happened in a single year...Noah's flood.

It's absolutely ridiculous...but you tell me what miracle isn't exactly that?

Can you explain demon possession?
Can you explain water into wine?
Can you.explain Christ raising Lazarus from the dead?
Can you explain Christs own death, resurrection and ascention into heaven?

All of those things are ridiculous, so why should it he necessary to read into the bible only that which we seem to think might make sense with principles of uniformitarianism?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Exactly...the bible says it happened in a single year...Noah's flood.

It's absolutely ridiculous...but you tell me what miracle isn't exactly that?

Can you explain demon possession?
Can you explain water into wine?
Can you.explain Christ raising Lazarus from the dead?
Can you explain Christs own death, resurrection and ascention into heaven?

All of those things are ridiculous, so why should it he necessary to read into the bible only that which we seem to think might make sense with principles of uniformitarianism?
Those are all easily explained.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Did you evenr read that article?
Are you denying the average elevation is NEGATIVE 2400 METRES?

that's 2.4km BELOW SEA LEVEL amigo.

land based animals would all perish right, so given the bible account specifically says, "the fountains of the deep burst forth"...I think its only logical to expect severe techtonic activity all around the globe.

I think people under estimate the catastrophic nature of Noah's flood.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you denying the average elevation is NEGATIVE 2400 METRES?

that's 2.4km BELOW SEA LEVEL amigo.

land based animals would all perish right, so given the bible account specifically says, "the fountains of the deep burst forth"...I think its only logical to expect severe techtonic activity all around the globe.

I think people under estimate the catastrophic nature of Noah's flood.
No, we know that there was no flood because all of the scientific evidence refutes it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Are you denying the average elevation is NEGATIVE 2400 METRES?

that's 2.4km BELOW SEA LEVEL amigo.

What does any of that have to do with anything?

land based animals would all perish right, so given the bible account specifically says, "the fountains of the deep burst forth"...I think its only logical to expect severe techtonic activity all around the globe.

I think people under estimate the catastrophic nature of Noah's flood.
I think you overestimate the case for this flood.
It demonstrably didn't happen.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Exactly...the bible says it happened in a single year...Noah's flood.

It's obvious that the people who wrote that had no knowledge of physics.

It's absolutely ridiculous...but you tell me what miracle isn't exactly that?

Ow, so you're saying it happened by magic? The laws of nature were suspended / violated?

So your god created all these mountains and made them look as if they have a millions-of-years history with no traces of any epic global flood?


Can you explain demon possession?

As much as I can explain bigfoot and leprechauns.

Can you explain water into wine?

As much as I can explain alchemy.

Can you.explain Christ raising Lazarus from the dead?

As much as I can explain necromancy / black magic

Can you explain Christs own death, resurrection and ascention into heaven?

As much as I can explain the 12 works of Hercules and his ascention into Olympus

All of those things are ridiculous,

Yes.

so why should it he necessary to read into the bible only that which we seem to think might make sense with principles of uniformitarianism?
Because the evidence says that is what you should do.

That's what you do when you work according to scientific principles.
If you start with a "statement of faith" however, where you already commit to a particular "explanation" a priori, then you do not working according to scientific principles.

The evidence doesn't matter when you adhere to such a statement of faith. Pro or con, it's not going to affect your beliefs about said explanation.

Evidence is useful only because it helps you to discover the truth of things.
If you decide a priori what the truth is, then evidence is not useful because you have stripped it from its entire raison-d'être.


You need to build your case from the evidence. You should not be super-imposing your case on the evidence.

The first allows you to zero-in on truth.
The latter is a good way to end up with false beliefs.

The first is science.
The second is gullibility and intellectual dishonesty.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you wanna refute something scientific, use a reference as your words are meaningless without it.
It's not science once the creation apologists are through manipulating it. I've explained why such sources aren't reliable sources of information. Au contraire. Their output is reliably disinformation.
Deal with the scientific observation I posted with alternative scientific study.
How about you find a reputable source for scientific claims, one that is mutually acceptable? I've explained why there is no value in even looking at creationist apologetics except to try to find the deception, which can be difficult, as it's often in the form of omissions.
the Bible is Gods revelation of our origins, of Himself, of How sin enterred this world, of the plan of Salvation and redemption, to us. A God who is Lord of all that doesn't make mistakes, is not learning, and certainly doesn't tell porkies. Our God is more than capable of explaining creation and the flood to a highly educated Egyptian Prince (Moses), in language Moses could understand. So if God said to Moses, "I created the world in 7 x 24 hours days" (evenings and mornings) , then thats exactly what He did.
I have no reason to believe unfalsifiable claims about gods and salvation, and your last claim has been falsified.
this is ignoring the techtonic plate upheaval that is clearly described in the bible flood account.
That's typical creationist apologetics. The Bible writers knew nothing of plate tectonics and there is no clearly described plate upheaval in scripture. Actually, there is almost nothing explained clearly in biblical scripture.

And it appears that you aren't interested in the problem that there isn't nearly enough water on, in or above earth to flood all dry land now or anytime in the recent past, although that might not have been true when the earth first cooled enough for rain to fall and pool, when the plates had just formed and before much mountain building had occurred. But there was no animal life then to float on that water and no plant life to make watercraft.

And the insufficient water argument is only one of several scientific refutations of the flood myth. There are problems with gathering and then later disseminating the animals, building the ark, feeding and housing the animals, flooding the earth in forty days whatever the source of this water, and later removing the flood water from the surface of the earth - where was it before, how did it end up on the surface, where is it now and how did it get there?

But none of that need concern a person who has chosen to believe that a global flood has occurred since man first appeared on earth
I think you need to actually first study the bible account, so you understand why your argument is meaningless to YEC Christians.
I'm quite familiar with the Bible and why scientific arguments are meaningless to YECs. I'm also under no illusion that you looked at the scientific refutation of claims in the biblical myth. I thought that others that need no convincing might find it interesting as I do.

And hopefully now YOU understand why creationist apologetics and unfalsifiable claims are meaningless to critical thinkers and empiricists. These are two radically different epistemologies which generate disparate and contradictory output, only one of which has ever been useful in describing and anticipating reality.
Exactly...the bible says it happened in a single year...Noah's flood. It's absolutely ridiculous...but you tell me what miracle isn't exactly that?
You have a different standard for belief, one that not only needs no evidence, but persists in the face of contradictory evidence.
Can you explain demon possession?
Can you explain water into wine?
Can you.explain Christ raising Lazarus from the dead?
Can you explain Christs own death, resurrection and ascention into heaven?
Sure, but not to somebody who is unresponsive to evidence that contradicts what he has chosen to believe by faith. You know the skeptic's explanation. You've read some of it already. These are all unfalsifiable claims, thus not supported or supportable by evidence, and thus not fit to be believed by the empiricist's standards for belief. The claims are all easy to explain. Many people believe things by faith, including things like those ideas. You probably do. The explanation for those words appearing here is that you have been told those things and believed what you were told uncritically.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Running from what?
Did you read Gentry's book?
I have and the things in the paragraphs that you posted are already refuted in Gentry's book.

any idiot can write books, doesn’t means it supported by the evidence, which are required for any proposed theory to be printed by scientific peer-reviewed publishers, which the Earth Science Associates is not.

The ESA is just a front Gentry created, a website (that’s no longer active), hence it is self-published book, and the only author with ESA is just Gentry.

Second, Gentry is indeed a nuclear physicist, however his experience were with the defence industry, hence nuclear weapons; hence Gentry have no experiences in geology, and certainly not in stratigraphy. Gentry also have no experiences in paleontology, and he isn’t a biologist.

If Gentry knew anything about how fossils, then he should have known that fossils don’t form from in less than 10,000 years.

Furthermore, he absurd claims were focused on granite rocks. Granite are igneous rocks, but granite that form underground, eg magma that cooled in magma chamber, (hence granite are listed as intrusive rocks), not cooled from surface-flowing lava (extrusive rocks).

plus, fossils don’t form in granite rocks. They formed where they are buried in deposits of sediments. When the layer of sediment, hardened into rocks, these are sedimentary rocks, in tens or hundreds of thousands or millions of years, whereas granite are igneous rocks.

As a physicist in nuclear physics, Gentry is a bloody idiot when explored outside his areas of expertise.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
doesn’t means it supported by the evidence, which are required for any proposed theory to be printed by scientific peer-reviewed publishers
That's a bull**** argument.

A lot of YEC research is peer reviewed. Your claim really, is that it has to be agreed with by the likes of the late Stephen hawking....if he didnt agree, then it's not peer reveiwed!

Let's not forget, a lot of YEC have lost their lucrative jobs once they found evidence of, and published in support of YEC. you cant call all of these individuals quacks with poor research skills, they were in the employment of very highly respected institutions for a long time...if they are dumbasses, how did they get those jobs in the first place?
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
If Gentry knew anything about how fossils, then he should have known that fossils don’t form from in less than 10,000 years.
They can be produced in labs in as little as 1 day:

"What if you want to fossilize something as fast as possible? Well, scientists have developed a method of doing so within about 24 hours – and it could lead to big advances in the field of paleontology.
In an effort to better understand how the fossilization process affects various types of biological materials, scientists at Britain's University of Bristol developed a lab-based process in which fresh specimens such as bird feathers, lizard limbs, and leaves can be converted into "synthetic" fossils within approximately one day.
Using a hydraulic press, the items are first packed into clay tablets about the diameter of a dime. Each tablet is then placed in a sealed metal tube, which gets heated to over 410 ºF (210 ºC) while also being subjected to 3,500 psi (241 bar) of pressure. After around 24 hours of this treatment, the tablets are cracked open to reveal their now-fossilized"
The research, which was supervised by Dr. Jakob Vinther, is described in a paper that was recently published in the journal Paleontology.
Sources: University of Bristol, Field Museum via EurekAlert
Btw...water pressure at base of Mariana trench is 15,750 psi

Synthetic coal was first produced in laboratory in 1913...


Friedrich Karl Rudolf Bergius (German pronunciation: [ˈfʁiːdʁɪç ˈbɛʁɡi̯ʊs] ⓘ, 11 October 1884 – 30 March 1949) was a German chemist known for the Bergius process for producing synthetic fuel from coal, Nobel Prize in Chemistry (1931, together with Carl Bosch

Hydrothermal carbonization can form synthetic coal at as little as 190 psi
(HTC) (also referred to as "aqueous carbonization at elevated temperature and pressure") is a chemical process for the conversion of organic compounds to structured carbons. It can be used to make a wide variety of nanostructured carbons, simple production of brown coal substitute, synthesis gas, liquid petroleum precursors and humus from biomass with release of energy. Hydrothermal carbonization - Wikipedia
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Your claim really, is that it has to be agreed with by the likes of the late Stephen hawking....if he didnt agree, then it's not peer reveiwed!

:openmouth: Wow…you must hate Hawking.

especially as this is strawman, since I have never brought up Hawking, as Hawking’s area of expertise is in theoretical astrophysics & cosmology, not on Earth’s stratigraphy, he wouldn’t reviewing any work in regarding to geology.

Paleontology is also something that Hawking wouldn’t talk about, as fossils are not his area of expertise.

Also, Hawking never sponsored any organisation in relation to Evolution, as he wasn’t a biologist.

so Hawking wouldn’t be “peer” on anything relating to fields of geology or to palaeontology, hence this is rather a baseless argument from you.

So what would be your point In bringing Hawking into this debate?



Let's not forget, a lot of YEC have lost their lucrative jobs once they found evidence of, and published in support of YEC. you cant call all of these individuals quacks with poor research skills, they were in the employment of very highly respected institutions for a long time...if they are dumbasses, how did they get those jobs in the first place?

That’s not how peer review works, especially towards natural sciences.

As Gentry’s work, in which @SavedByTheLord, was about rock formation at the Grand Canyon, you would expect that if there were be any peer reviewing done, it would by geologists especially with extensive knowledge in the field, such as knowledge on stratigraphy…so not by theoretical astrophysicists, like Hawking.

Would you have dentists or electricians or accountants to review a paper in neurology? So why would you think Hawking be a reviewer on stratigraphy?

PLUS. If there were any peer reviewing to be done, they would be reviewing any data that come with any new hypothesis.

Data are essential parts of observations when testing a hypothesis. Data including any information gathered about the discovered evidence or any experiments performed, because the evidence and experiments should provide any information about the properties of the evidence, especially measurements.

Gentry wrote about rocks, particularly igneous rocks like granite and that radiation could have affected those rocks, providing false readings of old age where as he claimed they were much younger.

now, while I am not doubting his expertise in nuclear physics, I do question his knowledge on geological fields like stratigraphy…as those who have criticise his so-called works; “those” being the people who are geologists (not astrophysicists like Hawking).

As Earth Science Associates (ESA) isn’t a publisher at all, but his webpage where he self-published and self promoted his book, it cannot be considered peer reviewed. But geologists have criticised his book, as he presented no evidence, particularly no data to accompany with his work. What those critics have done, as they have seen no evidence or data to support his works, and those have read, have criticised the numbers of misinformation.

The reasons why real peer-reviewed publishers don’t publish any work by YEC believers is that they (creationists) think can have their works printed without having to include the necessary evidence and data to support their claims. YEC authors also rely on great deal of misinformation.

If you wanted to talk about bull****, then that’s really coming from YEC crowd.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Water is in the ocean...you need look no further...the oceans are up to 11km deep.
They were always that deep. Your problem is to show where the extra billion cubic miles of water came from and where it is now.

Genetic bottlenecks

A few studies of plant viruses have attempted to estimate the effect of bottlenecks by examining diversity in populations from systemically infected tissues (18, 40). In addition, a number of studies of animal and bacterial viruses have examined changes in the population structure after passage through artificial bottlenecks (4, 7, 32, 49), but naturally occurring bottlenecks have been poorly studied...
there hasn't been any direct experimental evidence showing that naturally occurring bottlenecks play a role in the genetic structure of viral populations
Btw...the study referenced used viruses in experiments...I have a theory about viruses...pre fall of man, I don't think they did what they do post Eden and post flood.​
You need to address the ABSENCE of relevant simultaneous genetic bottlenecks in all land ANIMALS.

Now focusing on important stuff...fossil fuels ...
The amounts of porphyrins found in crude oils vary from traces to 0.04% (or 400 parts per million).10 Experiments have produced a concentration of 0.5% porphyrin (of the type found in crude oils) from plant material in just one day,11 so it doesn’t take millions of years to produce the small amounts of porphyrins found in crude oils. Indeed, a crude oil porphyrin can be made from plant chlorophyll in less than 12 hours
it has been demonstrated in the laboratory that moderate heating of the brown coals of the Gippsland Basin of Victoria, Australia, to simulate their rapid deeper burial, will generate crude oil and natural gas similar to that found in reservoir rocks offshore in only 2–5 days The Origin of Oil
Wholly irrelevant. You need to answer the three questions, water, bottlenecks, single flood layer.

But unfortunately you can't, because they're not there.

Did you check out the point that the bible 's flood story is a tale borrowed from the Sumerians in Mesopotamia?

The tale existed by the middle of the third millennium BCE and may be much older.

By contrast, the earliest record of the existence of Yahweh is the middle of the second millennium BCE, where [he]'s simply a member of the Canaanite pantheon (as [he] is in roughly the first half of the Tanakh ─ only after the Babylonian captivity does [he] become the only God).
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
You need to answer the three questions, water, bottlenecks, single flood layer.
You are dog barking up trees. If you want answers from YEC: (I don't care if you don't read them btw...these are not for your benefit.)

1. Average land elevation foir the earth is "minus 2.4km." You keep ignoring this fact...the water is exactly where it's always been.
2. Getting Enough Genetic Diversity
3. The Flood
4. Sumerian mythology? You are taking that as literal history? The problem is the bible is proven both internally and externally...we know it's historical because of a wealth of supporting evidence. There's multiple writers, often unknown to esth other, multiple events consistent with other writings...the consistency is to solid for it to be a fabrication from Sumerians. I would argue the existence of the Sumerian myth, like the dreamtime stories from other cultures such as Australian aboriginals, supports the bible narrative as most likely true!

A growing mood among secular scholars is to dismiss out of hand the biblical history of Genesis through 1 Kings, because, it is contended, there is a total mismatch between these accounts and the archaeological record. Since their verdict is that no such correlation exists, the Bible’s stories of the patriarchs, Israel in Egypt, the Exodus and Conquest, and even David and Solomon, are to be dismissed as merely pious legends, without historical foundation. The answer to such a challenge is to seek another time location where these events can be found, even if that location is out of harmony with accepted chronological schemes, and thus construct a revised chronology​
My own view is that we must patiently sift the data, and work from the known to the unknown in the light of biblical evidence (determined from proper exegesis), archaeology, and ancient texts.​
it is all too easy to point to a similarity of a name in the Bible and on an Egyptian monument, then jump to the conclusion that these two names refer to the same king. An obvious example is the Shishaq of 1 Kings 14:25, and the Shoshenq of the Bubastite Portal. Yet as we compare the itinerary of this king’s conquests in Palestine as per the Bubastite Portal with the account in 1 Kings 14:25–26 they are quite different: Shoshenq never went near Jerusalem. Are then the two references to the same person after all?​
A related problem in this connection concerns by what name an Egyptian pharaoh was known in foreign nations, and for that matter by the general populace. As is well known, the royal titulary had five names: the Horus, the nebty, the golden Horus, the nesu-bit or prenomen, and the son-of-Re or birth name. We can gain some insight here from the letter of Ankh-hesen-amun, the widow of the teenage king Tutankhamun, to Šuppiluliuma of the Hittites. She refers to her dead husband as Niphururiya—a precise rendering in cuneiform of Tutankhamun’s prenomen Nebkheperure, but not by his birth name.7 This seems to have been usual for diplomacy of the time. As to popular versions of a pharaoh’s name, it is well known that, for example, Ramesses II was known as Sessi, apparently a hypocoristicon of his birth name.8 Ancient chronology and the Old Testament: part 1
Might I suggest you also read this Gobekli Tepe it's an interfering dilemma for your Sumerian claim an the hunter gatherer view. The find is dated by secularists at least to 9000 b.c!​
The home of Abrams father Tera (Haran), is nearby to this discovery!​
 
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