There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

[Twilight Hue]

For me, it is best to follow ideals NOT people. That is fine to encourage people to be kind, just, honest, hard-working - to do these things not because someone said so, but for natural rewards.

As soon as anyone tells others "because I said so", that is a control freak who is not to be trusted.

Follow ideals. NOT people.

I would say things requires actual merit in order to be acknowledged. Something that can be approached and engaged first in a tactile manner that gives substance to any and all claims and pronouncements.

If I'm going to announce something on behalf of something else. I would hope those I'm announcing to, will have first hand familiarity and acknowledgment of the one sending its representative first, and the means to establish and validate the messages content if otherwise.

 

[idea]

I would say things requires actual merit in order to be acknowledged. Something that can be approached and engaged first in a tactile manner that gives substance to any and all claims and pronouncements.

If I'm going to announce something on behalf of something else. I would hope those I'm announcing to, will have first hand familiarity and acknowledgment of the one sending its representative first, and the means to establish and validate the messages content if otherwise.

I agree, idea is worthless if not applied. Follow logic, experiment, idea should be vetted through natural rewards and results - but it is evidence, ideas, data to create and follow - not a person.

 

[QuestioningMind]

But if you saw the greatness, awe and majesty of God, I don’t believe you would do anything other than worship Him, and God does not seek mechanical, robotic worship based on intellectual proof but our love and that can only be given voluntarily not based on proof. That’s just my opinion.

That doesn't make any sense, unless you're claiming that the love and worship of this god beings messengers is mechanical and robotic and wasn't given voluntarily. And if these special messengers aren't capable of providing this love without intellectual proof, how are us mere mortals supposed to be able to do it?

 

[sayak83]

But if you saw the greatness, awe and majesty of God, I don’t believe you would do anything other than worship Him, and God does not seek mechanical, robotic worship based on intellectual proof but our love and that can only be given voluntarily not based on proof. That’s just my opinion.

In my opinion and experience...
God does not seek anything at all from us or anybody. God has no desires, needs, wants, requirements, hopes, fears, hurts or angers. I have strong concerns of authenticity of so called messengers that say otherwise. Seems very human made needs what these messengers say.

 

[CG Didymus]

Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

They are not disapproving someone they believe to be a "True" messenger. They believe them to be a "false" messenger.

Indeed.
As Stephen F Roberts said... "When you understand why you reject other gods, you will understand why I reject yours".

Yes, what are the reasons Baha'is reject Jesus being part of a Trinitarian God? Why do Baha'is reject Krishna from being an incarnation of Vishnu? Why do they reject the people, other than the Bab and Baha'u'llah, that have claimed to be the Messiah or the Mahdi or the Maitreya? Probably very similar to why people in the other religions reject the Baha'i prophets.

 

[CG Didymus]

Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

Again... What was the Jesus message that "shaped" billions? Jesus is God. Jesus is the only way. Satan is out to deceive you. You have inherited a sin debt that can only be paid for by the sacrificial death of Jesus. Jesus died and was resurrected and is coming back.

It'll be great if the teachings of Baha'u'llah can shape the people and nations of the world into a system that will bring peace, love and harmony. That's such a good thing for us all. Why isn't it being accepted? What is it about the claims of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith that is causing some, or most people, to question it?

 

[CG Didymus]

That doesn't make any sense, unless you're claiming that the love and worship of this god beings messengers is mechanical and robotic and wasn't given voluntarily. And if these special messengers aren't capable of providing this love without intellectual proof, how are us mere mortals supposed to be able to do it?

It's bad enough to think that an unprovable, unknowable, unseeable God should be loved. But the messenger of this invisible God also says, "Oh, by the way, here are some laws that must be followed or you're not truly believing in this invisible God."

How many people were tricked or forced to believe in an invisible God that demanded human sacrifices? Even Baha'is, I'm sure, would say that invisible God was not real. No true God would demand that. But then, a religion that Baha'is do believe is true, had God demanding animal sacrifices and for people to be stoned to death for breaking some of the laws demanded by this invisible God?

Baha'is directly descended from that religion. What can they say? That the true God didn't demand those things? I would hope a true God didn't demand those things. I would hope that those were just the beliefs invented by an ancient people. But religions expect their teachings and laws to be followed... because they came from God... an invisible God that no one can prove is real.

 

[rational experiences]

Basic no need to question human advice.

Family living naturally only exist survive.

No governing. No controls demands or money. First.

Trade was you showed skills. I have skills. I like what craft you've applied. Let's swap. Family mutual.

Parenting to teach children life safety survival. Not laws.

Everyone needed owned a hierarchical inherited natural family place.

Our reality the humans first life.

Nowhere is anything in created creation more loving. Than humans.

If you say I believe. I think. No proof is involved. None.

As humans who said spirit terms it was visionary advice. It was visionary advice only.

A spirit a memory a creator. A loving being. Who isn't with us.

We left it. We own dominion in creation says our consciousness. As we were with the being who caused creation.

So the being inherits what it changed.

Humans.

So we know the information humans are aware of many things naturally is a message to ourselves given equally. The human.

Any other messages involves creation thesis theories. Only said by living humans. Who identify the natural bodies in and as their natural bodies. By type. Human is only ever our type.

When you state no man is God. It's use of human words. The meaning stated. Owns no argument the words already say it exact.

If you say don't self idolate. It means don't. As humans. No argument it's exact.

So no other human is more special than my life.

You just want to convince me that you are. It's all in your own head why you say you are more special. You then write why. Then you preach.

 

[rational experiences]

Basic no need to question human advice.

Family living naturally only exist survive.

No governing. No controls demands or money. First.

Trade was you showed skills. I have skills. I like what craft you've applied. Let's swap. Family mutual.

Parenting to teach children life safety survival. Not laws.

Everyone needed owned a hierarchical inherited natural family place.

Our reality the humans first life.

Nowhere is anything in created creation more loving. Than humans.

If you say I believe. I think. No proof is involved. None.

As humans who said spirit terms it was visionary advice. It was visionary advice only.

A spirit a memory a creator. A loving being. Who isn't with us.

We left it. We own dominion in creation says our consciousness. As we were with the being who caused creation.

So the being inherits what it changed.

Humans.

So we know the information humans are aware of many things naturally is a message to ourselves given equally. The human.

Any other messages involves creation thesis theories. Only said by living humans. Who identify the natural bodies in and as their natural bodies. By type. Human is only ever our type.

When you state no man is God. It's use of human words. The meaning stated. Owns no argument the words already say it exact.

If you say don't self idolate. It means don't. As humans. No argument it's exact.

So no other human is more special than my life.

You just want to convince me that you are. It's all in your own head why you say you are more special. You then write why. Then you preach.

No one is more special than my life.

Recognition.

Humans who do not recognise self equal human status prove the above sentence they then used to claim no one human is more special than my life.

Proven. Brain mind self ownership removed shifted by causes.

So the story is only a confession I've been changed.

As Baha'i teaching would state DNA human life mind body was changed once again.

New tribal family.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesn't make any sense, unless you're claiming that the love and worship of this god beings messengers is mechanical and robotic and wasn't given voluntarily. And if these special messengers aren't capable of providing this love without intellectual proof, how are us mere mortals supposed to be able to do it?

Ok. For me, I did my research over a number of years. The bottom line is that I felt that the Baha’i message of universal reconciliation, tolerance and brotherhood was right for our age which is so full of prejudices between races, religions and nations. I just felt that Baha’u’llah got it right by teaching the oneness of humanity and religions.

All in all, His teachings convinced me that they were from God. But I respect your right to differ and believe differently because you are a fellow human and you have every right to come to your own conclusion and I respect that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In my opinion and experience...
God does not seek anything at all from us or anybody. God has no desires, needs, wants, requirements, hopes, fears, hurts or angers. I have strong concerns of authenticity of so called messengers that say otherwise. Seems very human made needs what these messengers say.

I very much agree with your views. Even Baha’u’llah said that God is in no need from anyone for anything that He is above all need.

Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.(Baha’u’llah)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again... What was the Jesus message that "shaped" billions? Jesus is God. Jesus is the only way. Satan is out to deceive you. You have inherited a sin debt that can only be paid for by the sacrificial death of Jesus. Jesus died and was resurrected and is coming back.

It'll be great if the teachings of Baha'u'llah can shape the people and nations of the world into a system that will bring peace, love and harmony. That's such a good thing for us all. Why isn't it being accepted? What is it about the claims of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith that is causing some, or most people, to question it?

This says a lot.

John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 8:31 "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples"

The teachings become the required standard to build a lasting civilisation.

People still hold strongly to materialism is why the Message of Baha’u’llah is yet to be embraced. The world is changing rapidly now.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They are not disapproving someone they believe to be a "True" messenger. They believe them to be a "false" messenger.

A true Messenger cannot be proven false.

That is what the OP of about. The proofs that prove Jesus will prove all the Messengers. They have the same "Fruits", their is no bad fruit to prove them wrong.

If you attempt to, then the statement in the OP is applicable.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How would I prove to you, when whatever proofs I offer, you will simply say it's my opinion and interpretation.

I see you are correct, as you cannot, as they are your interpretations. You can offer your opinions on the Quran, you can offer hadith that give an explanation, but none of us are authorised to interpret.

It is not our job to prove Allah to any soul, our task is only to offer and discuss to those that wish to.

Regards Tony

 

[QuestioningMind]

Ok. For me, I did my research over a number of years. The bottom line is that I felt that the Baha’i message of universal reconciliation, tolerance and brotherhood was right for our age which is so full of prejudices between races, religions and nations. I just felt that Baha’u’llah got it right by teaching the oneness of humanity and religions.

All in all, His teachings convinced me that they were from God. But I respect your right to differ and believe differently because you are a fellow human and you have every right to come to your own conclusion and I respect that.

Sounds to me as if you just like the message and would like it to be true, not that you have any actual evidence to suggest that it actually is true. If these teaching tell you that god can't communicate directly because then our love and worship of this god being would be mechanical and robotic and not given voluntarily, then that means that the love and worship of the messengers is mechanical and robotic and not given voluntarily. So how are we supposed to accomplish this feat when it was beyond the abilities of this god being's special messengers?

 

[Link]

I see you are correct, as you cannot, as they are your interpretations.

Same with you, you can't prove Maitreya is not a Prophet as they are merely your interpretations of him and his Prophethood.

Let's all be braindead, that's what God wants from us.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let's all be braindead, that's what God wants from us.

I see it in a different way. God wants us to make up out own minds.

Thus we can share, but we are responsible for our choices.

Baha'u'llah has put this in the hidden Words the first two being the key to faith

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

2.O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

A true Messenger cannot be proven false.

That is what the OP of about. The proofs that prove Jesus will prove all the Messengers. They have the same "Fruits", their is no bad fruit to prove them wrong.

If you attempt to, then the statement in the OP is applicable.

Regards Tony

Which ones do you believe are false, and how did you prove that they were false? But again, Abraham and Moses were never made out to be anything but regular old humans, not some special manifestation. They made mistakes, especially with Moses having killed a guy. And yet again, it's as if these stories are true and not just legends and myths.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which ones do you believe are false, and how did you prove that they were false? But again, Abraham and Moses were never made out to be anything but regular old humans, not some special manifestation. They made mistakes, especially with Moses having killed a guy. And yet again, it's as if these stories are true and not just legends and myths.

Well, I see we are lucky to live in an age where we can see the fruits of the past Messengers and have the ability to equate those fruits with the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Likewise with any other person that has claimed such a station, take upon our own investigation and make our own informed choices.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

the Baha’i message of universal reconciliation, tolerance and brotherhood was right for our age which is so full of prejudices between races, religions and nations. I just felt that Baha’u’llah got it right by teaching the oneness of humanity and religions.

Sounds like a great message... But... There's more to the message. He says, "Oh by the way I'm the return of Christ, Muhammad, Buddha and all the other manifestations of God. But, as you can see, I'm not literally them." Then he goes into about Jesus, "He's not coming back. In fact that human body he had is dead and gone. It didn't resurrect. Oh, and Satan... He's not real."

It's the claims that are the problem. Are they all true? They have to be, or he's not really who he claims to be. Who's going to argue with the teachings of love, peace and unity. In fact, Christianity talks about love and peace too. The problem is that some Christians demand that a person believe the Bible literally. Which, to them, includes believing in Satan, in hell, in Creation and that Jesus is God.

Sounds to me as if you just like the message and would like it to be true, not that you have any actual evidence to suggest that it actually is true.

The evidence I was shown by Baha'is was the supposed fulfilled prophecies. The one I remember most was, I'll paraphrase it... "How beit that when he the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you to all truth." They said "See, Jesus prophesied about Baha'u'llah. He is the spirit of truth Jesus was talking about." Then later, when Christians were telling me their truth, they said that verse is about the Holy Spirit. So, there went that "evidence" Then not long after, the evidence those Christians were providing, the Bible, especially their interpretation of it, became suspect.