There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

[TransmutingSoul]

I want to investigate Krishna. What Scriptures do you approve of that will give me the truth about Krishna?

I will leave that up to you CG, all the best in that search.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The other problem... Lots of people, even non-Christians, believe that Jesus was a true messenger. But do you believe all the NT stories about him? Unless you believe those things literally happened, then you are still making necessary adjustments to those stories to make them not complete and total lies. So, even the things about the life of Jesus become unprovable. So, what good is it to say, "can't prove it false" when nobody can prove it true either?

But do those stories sound true? Not to everybody... even to Baha'is. They make the necessary "adjustment" to those stories by saying they are not "literally" true but "spiritually" true. Which kind of makes them literally false, as in they never happened... They are fictional.

I believe that the entire Torah and new Testament were given to enable humanity to turn to the One God and prepare humanity for the Messengers to come and most importantly to embrace the New Heaven and New Earth brought to us by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I see the Bible serves that purpose, it is a sure spiritual guide.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician.

whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation

That is the problem... Unity, peace, love... Sounds great. But to unify the world in love and peace means that one God and one common faith and one common revelation has to be accepted by all. The Baha'i message hasn't even unified us here on the forum.

No matter what quotes Baha'is put out there, they are all met with opposition. Mostly because they require a belief in an unknowable, unprovable, invisible God and that Baha'u'llah is his latest messenger/manifestation. How do you prove the unprovable? How do you convince people to just take it on faith?

What I usually point out is that essentially, Baha'is don't agree with or support the beliefs of any of the other religions that are being practiced in the world today. Religious and spiritual unity then depends on them realizing that their religion no longer works... that it has some teachings in it and some beliefs, according to the Baha'i Faith, that just aren't true. So, for the unity of the world under one common faith kind of sounds like everybody needs to accept the Baha'i Faith. That's probably going to be the cause of division more than bringing religious people together in mutual love and respect for each other.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's my contention that religion makes reaching such a goal more difficult, not easier. It's past time we gave up the crutch. We're old enough that we need to rally around humanity, not some mythical god being.

Thanks for your patience. I believe rallying around a belief in the principle of the oneness of humanity can being all of us together.

Even atheists and humanists can commit to that concept without believing in a God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is the problem... Unity, peace, love... Sounds great. But to unify the world in love and peace means that one God and one common faith and one common revelation has to be accepted by all. The Baha'i message hasn't even unified us here on the forum.

No matter what quotes Baha'is put out there, they are all met with opposition. Mostly because they require a belief in an unknowable, unprovable, invisible God and that Baha'u'llah is his latest messenger/manifestation. How do you prove the unprovable? How do you convince people to just take it on faith?

What I usually point out is that essentially, Baha'is don't agree with or support the beliefs of any of the other religions that are being practiced in the world today. Religious and spiritual unity then depends on them realizing that their religion no longer works... that it has some teachings in it and some beliefs, according to the Baha'i Faith, that just aren't true. So, for the unity of the world under one common faith kind of sounds like everybody needs to accept the Baha'i Faith. That's probably going to be the cause of division more than bringing religious people together in mutual love and respect for each other.

All humanity needs to accept is the oneness of humanity not any religion. They can all keep their own beliefs. Acceptance of God is not a prerequisite for uniting humanity.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Thanks for your patience. I believe rallying around a belief in the principle of the oneness of humanity can being all of us together.

Even atheists and humanists can commit to that concept without believing in a God.

rallying around a belief in the principle of the oneness of humanity

THIS is what we should be striving for, not some belief in some elusive god being whose will everyone can interpret differently.

 

[loverofhumanity]

rallying around a belief in the principle of the oneness of humanity

THIS is what we should be striving for, not some belief in some elusive god being whose will everyone can interpret differently.

That we are all human is a common bond we all share.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would offer that we are not aware what Baha'u'llah offered in that Passage. What we can say is that Baha'u'llah confirmed existing scriptures.

This is what the Biblical offers.

Genesis 9:29
"Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died"

Regards Tony

But some Baha'is have said that one of the things the new messenger is sent to do is correct the misinterpretations about the previous messenger. If Noah didn't live to be 950 years old, the easiest way to correct that would be to say he didn't live that long.... that those stories were mythical and exaggerated the ages of the people.

 

[CG Didymus]

I will leave that up to you CG, all the best in that search.

Regards Tony

So, Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith have nothing to help in that investigation? It's sad, but I didn't think so. That's why I think the concept of Progressive Revelation is too basic and too general. When applied to Hinduism, it doesn't work. Now to say that religious and spiritual beliefs evolved and changed over time, that I can believe.... That people thought up things about the Gods they believed to be true, but they weren't. So, over time, beliefs changed. It just leaves out the belief that every religion had a manifestation sent from the one God as a founder.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That’s why we need a God or a Christ or Baha’u’llah especially at this time when there seems to be no leader committed to uniting us.

How effective were they the first time?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that the entire Torah and new Testament were given to enable humanity to turn to the One God and prepare humanity for the Messengers to come and most importantly to embrace the New Heaven and New Earth brought to us by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I see the Bible serves that purpose, it is a sure spiritual guide.

Regards Tony

Ah, but some Baha'is say that the new messenger abrogates all the dispensations that came before it. So, good bye Torah. You were replaced by the message of Buddha. Whose message was replaced by Jesus and so on. But that's not what happened.

The Hebrew Bible tells the people that the laws given to them are for all their generations. The NT has Jesus being a necessary sacrifice and atonement for the inherited sin nature of Adam. They did a terrible job on preparing people to accept the next person that Baha'is believe was the next manifestation. Of course, Baha'is find Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the Hebrew Bible. But it takes some interesting and creative interpreting. Same with the NT... Baha'is see Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the NT. But in very strange ways. The comforter? The Three Woes? The Two witnesses? Easy for Baha'is to see it and believe it. But, in the context of the passages where these things come from, I don't see it.

 

[CG Didymus]

All humanity needs to accept is the oneness of humanity not any religion. They can all keep their own beliefs. Acceptance of God is not a prerequisite for uniting humanity.

When the turmoil gets so bad that things look as if there is no hope, who do Baha'is say the world will turn to? After the lessor peace has been going on for a while, what will be the final, necessary steps for the world to achieve the Most Great Peace?

 

[CG Didymus]

How effective were they the first time?

Yes, supposedly, God killed off all the evil people with a flood. All that was left was Noah and his family, and the world soon got filled with evil people again. Baha'is believe that God will be successful this time, though.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'll grant that religion has been a force for unifying tribes in common cause in the past, but in this day and age it tends to create more divisiveness than unity, as one religion or sect attempts to gain dominance over others. At some point it no longer provides any benefit for the betterment of society. Take Europe and the Middle East for instnace. Christianity very effectively managed to spread throughout Europe and join all of the tribes in common cause. However, once Christianity was prevalent, Christianity started to break up into various sects, all vying for final authority. The same happened with Islam in the Middle East. The religion at first united the region against the threat of spreading Christianity, but todays it's broken into sect that's violently oppose one another and bring us further from the united humanity we seek, not closer.

It's a crutch at this point that serves no real purpose and often distracts from the unity we'll need if we're going to survive as a race. We need to stop looking for some mysterious 'outside' force to guide us and realize that it's time for us to grow up, take responsibility for ourselves, and do the hard work that needs to be done ourselves. That's what humanists all across the world are advocating for, justice and human rights for all humanity. You'd think that's something that anyone would be able to support, regardless of their religious beliefs. There's no need for a belief in some god being in order to believe in justice and human rights for everyone; but sadly there are far too many religions that teach otherwise, that women should have fewer rights than men, and that gay people should have fewer rights, or shouldn't even have the right to exist at all.

If the brother/sisterhood of humanity isn't enough then we're doomed, because we is all we've got.

The key will be to manipulate people to work towards common goals without triggering hostility. Ecological thinking is vital.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But some Baha'is have said that one of the things the new messenger is sent to do is correct the misinterpretations about the previous messenger. If Noah didn't live to be 950 years old, the easiest way to correct that would be to say he didn't live that long.... that those stories were mythical and exaggerated the ages of the people.

Maybe, when we stop war and find our unity, then we may also discover what those verses imply.

When I read the Bible after becoming a Baha'i my first thought they were the Dispensation of the Messenger. Later on I found that this was not confirmed as a correct interpretation. So in the end it remains a mystery to us. It has meaning we are yet to understand and that is OK with me, but others may struggle not knowing.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith have nothing to help in that investigation? It's sad, but I didn't think so. That's why I think the concept of Progressive Revelation is too basic and too general. When applied to Hinduism, it doesn't work. Now to say that religious and spiritual beliefs evolved and changed over time, that I can believe.... That people thought up things about the Gods they believed to be true, but they weren't. So, over time, beliefs changed. It just leaves out the belief that every religion had a manifestation sent from the one God as a founder.

Maybe these two quotes from Abdul'baha will help with clarity of what progressive revelation involves?

"A Baha’i denies no religion; he accepts the Truth in all, and would die to uphold it. He loves all men as his brothers, of whatever class, of whatever race or nationality, of whatever creed or colour, whether good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or hideous. He commits no violence; if he is struck he does not return the blow. He calls nothing bad, following the example of the Lord Baha’u’llah."

"In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Baha’i."

Baha means "Glory" or "Splendor".

So a Baha'i is a follower of the "Glory of God"

The practice transcends Names.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah, but some Baha'is say that the new messenger abrogates all the dispensations that came before it. So, good bye Torah. You were replaced by the message of Buddha. Whose message was replaced by Jesus and so on. But that's not what happened.

That is why we should investigate for our own selves.

All I offer is what Abdul'baha offers.

INSCRIPTION IN THE OLD BIBLE
Written by Abdul Baha in Persian

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God, Abdul Baha Abbas.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Hebrew Bible tells the people that the laws given to them are for all their generations.

Yes, but God renews them applicable to each age. Part of the law is acceptance of God's Covenants and the Major Covenant is that God never leaves us without guidance.

So the Jew, in light of the Covenants, is now required to practice the Law as given in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. In the time of Muhammad the Jew would have fulfilled the Covenants by embracing Muhammad and the Law given in the Quran.

Regards Tony

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes, supposedly, God killed off all the evil people with a flood. All that was left was Noah and his family, and the world soon got filled with evil people again. Baha'is believe that God will be successful this time, though.

He couldn’t handle TWO PEOPLE. THE ONLY TWO PEOPLE WHO EXISTED.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course, Baha'is find Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the Hebrew Bible. But it takes some interesting and creative interpreting. Same with the NT... Baha'is see Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the NT. But in very strange ways. The comforter? The Three Woes? The Two witnesses? Easy for Baha'is to see it and believe it. But, in the context of the passages where these things come from, I don't see it.

It takes a lot of reading of what Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha offered before we can have that vision CG. It needs new frames of references.

It needs the keys promised in the Bible to unlock that meaning.

Regards Tony