We one and all can live next to you as a brother or a sister and share what we have with you.
You would always be welcome to share all that life has to offer with us with no compulsion of religion.
What other fruits would you like?
Regards Tony
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There is no argument to be used against a Messenger
We one and all can live next to you as a brother or a sister and share what we have with you.
You would always be welcome to share all that life has to offer with us with no compulsion of religion.
What other fruits would you like?
Regards Tony
Being with oppressed against oppressors as stated by Imam Ali (a) on his death bed to Hassan (a) and Hussain (a).
I know that requires effort, striving, courage, bravery, and exchanging love of this life for next, something I won't hold my breath for you guys to do.
I barely survived my madness and yet to even start my career (1 year left in computer science) but inshallah, time will show what I offer.
That sounds dangerous Link. It does not sound like you intend to offer fruit to humanity, but to fulfill self needs.
I hope I am wrong.
Regards Tony
I don't care what you think.
I would offer that is a sign of a true Messenger, is that they care for every human soul, they do not discriminate with Love.
Thus as a follower of a Messenger, we are a true believer when we also Love and care.
I care for you, that is why I continue to discuss this with you, albeit in your hostility towards what is offered.
Peace be with you,
Peace be on Muhammad.
Regards Tony
@TransmutingSoul you never deal with content. Just emotionally preaching.
Why don't you make a thread like my "Signs of Eloquence in Quran" thread, and manifest the wonders of your holy books.
We can that after make a thread to compare if you manifest any such high features in your books and compare it to what I manifested.
But so far, you give no content.
I talked about abstract religion, instead of dialogue about what I said, you go full emotional preaching. This all you got. Empty.
Why don't you make a thread like my "Signs of Eloquence in Quran" thread, and manifest the wonders of your holy books.
We can that after make a thread to compare if you manifest any such high features in your books and compare it to what I manifested.
But so far, you give no content.
I talked about abstract religion, instead of dialogue about what I said, you go full emotional preaching. This all you got. Empty.
Or it is Full, full of what God offers and not what man wants.
I offered in this OP to explore the fruits of the Messenger.
What are the fruits of a Messenger?
Regards Tony
You are just talking in theory. Not showing substance.
In theory a true Messenger would prove himself. God would prove him with clear proofs,.
A Book from God would have features that can only be from God.
But this in theory. In reality, you got people like Maitreya claiming his revelation is better then past revelations and Quran when what he writes is barf like compared to Quran.
So we have Messengers sent in theory, and we can talk about wisdom of that. And yes, they have proofs, legacy, and a way to be known.
However, a Messenger never comes alone. They come in groups as an Ahlulbayt and Quran shows why. Succession is important. A current guide and leader is important concept in Quran.
Quran didn't just say "Messengers" it showed how they come in a group known as the "Ahlulbayt" of their time.
You are not dialoging, you just want to preach.
I've shown why wisdom of why Mohammad (s) is sent, can be used against Baha'allah. Because the latter doesn't have an Ahlulbayt, his offspring stopped at his grandson as far leadership divinely appointed type goes, the rest didn't want to continue lying and even left bahai fatih.
Literally became "abtar" as far legacy of guidance goes.
Surah Kawthar was revealed when Arabs made fun of Mohammad (S) for not having a son. They said he would die and his guidance would cease without offspring continuing his legacy like past Prophets claimed by Mohammad (S), and so just to put up with him till he dies.
So the name of God in Surah Kawthar refers to Fatima (a), and the Abundance includes Mohammad's (s) light and guidance continued in his offspring and Imams succeeding each other.
Yet, we see Bab doesn't get succeeded by someone close to him in family blood, and we see Baha'allah succession stop shortly with his grandson. So he came "abtar" as far the issue of continuing legacy of leading and guiding goes in offspring.
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Once a messenger caused the “charge of the light brigade”,didn’t end well,messengers are human,you can’t put a blanket of “it must be true” merely because they tell you it’s from a divine source because they are human imo.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
If this god being and I have the capacity to communicate directly then why waste time sending mysterious 'messengers' speaking hearsay? I have not failed to explore where we were actually created from. All of the verifiable evidence suggests that we're the product of natural processes. Until your god-being decides to provide some alternate evidence that isn't hearsay, it's the only verifiable evidence there is. That's not a failure on my part, but rather a failure of your god being to provide sufficient evidence.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Father has taught me about our brother the scientist theist self idolisation.
Fake. Based on a long time dead human man memory of man. A non God earth mass origin once existed removed. Huge planet like other planets. Earths natural history.
Brothers agreed theism. Nature existed. The man first. Just from eternal.
But the eternal previously had manifested mother's life. Father's life. Most of life had demanifested as eternal didn't belong in created creation.
Large group of men on earth alone. Origin man of sciences position. Why he said he'd build a machine that would time shift his bio life. It's exact terms of theory by bio conscious.
That status is memory. Known and aware for you to have understood that manifested human life had in fact returned back into eternal. You'd seen it. Why it's in memory.
You science self were hence the non sexual man. You hadn't gone back. Your memory said you were stuck on earth you didn't belong.
Also a directly expressed human thought now..
Exact positions in memory.
Now earths origin science mass is gone. In its place with your death is a thought known.... a long time ago is hot sun star mass. I'm deceased myself.
A long time thought cosmic history the travelling star you caused now emerged. So you theory a time frame by your memory condition to emerging gods star rock.. all fake.
A long time coming is a stars mass coming into its gods rich being. Theme a body of riches resource. Exact all your thoughts. Wrong thoughts.
The resource. God coming arriving your messages in theism science.
Long count. Man knows. Man of god scientific thesis knows. Why such evils are taught in the context thesis.
Our holy father memories. After the ice age I came out of the eternal life as the human returned with mother to live again.
Theme ice saviour exact. Ice made their life come back out. Heavens pressure a reactive pulsing moving heavens caused it again.
Innocent meek natural holy human. Natural humanity.
Youre not there in that history. Brother theist cosmic believer.
Then the burning star of dinosaurs earths heavens returned as it had bern ignited and came back. Direct hit. Mass of star given as holding once passed then brings it aligned to a direct earth hit. By mass gone.
So Muslim humanity Egyptian brain bio life science caused Sacrificed. Now by ceremony move around a cosmic stone. Exact memory why. Life attacked.
Burnt the non sexual man is known man's historical causes. New scientist mind baby man. Not holy father. Is exact.
Theist emerges as the evil man's mind. Builds civilisation stating I now own my god status owner of the rock of earth. Yet he never did. Secondary hierarchy is I own all of earth.
I make a system civilisation rich king lord..... if you want to live I made you slave. You then pay me by my human only false system.
As I implemented as men all status artificial myself for control over God.
You then can have food. Live survive by slavery in civilisation.
Mr Banker rich man Satan society. Exact known stated and referenced self history of baby human man.
Father said. The saviour teaching for man scientist. Was for his families father mother human equality teaching warnings. Not you. It's about you.
Why he won't budge from his rich man's self status. Title.
Space womb cosmic mother birthed earths saviour as water to ice. Ice cosmic wombs holy saviour.
Although water existed before ice in burning space. Energy evolving. It was by mass pressure water was evolving it with space into ice.
Father said why holy man's warnings said my cosmic wisdom is womb space mother the saviour only. No satanisms about burning energy or cooling of is holy.
As pressure is a huge part of creations holding.
Why coat of many colours heavens saviour mantle was not mans father. Taught exact. Anyone affected in mind by it wasn't telling humans accurate truth. As life is mutual equal only.
Your conclusions would own no self idolisations. Knowing as yet the saviour ice mass has not returned it's earth body accumulation.
A future would.
Exact taught scientific advice.
In dinosaurs life cold blood their ice was present atmospheric.... it just could not manifest. As gases of earths heavens were very hot.
Why it was igniting cold god star wanderers asteroids. That were close to earth.
Only after the huge earth attack extinction did ice be enabled to return as a pressure body.
As father taught you Atlantis earth was in fact a cold earth non alight heavens. Beautiful planet facure. Sun burnt melted converted it.
So cold pressure crystal mass was rocks first saviour body.
Then ice returned and took its place. Saved earth from exploding scattering losing its core as others had.
Hence by the loss of the fruits of life existing the core is removed the warning of pressures holding it. Fruit core a direct symbolic teaching.
A humans scientific teaching.
All life is human as human. We are mutual equal and family. We are only human inside earths heavens walking on the ground. Direct advice ignored.
We walk on God.
And brother human man theist is possessed by his cosmic space themes is exact. Was already known he was. The answers all belonged to first human scientist on earth.
A greater earths mass. Higher amount of and his self man more spiritual and holier. Than who he is and why he compares himself to first man today. Himself. He is not some Rock returning.
Just humans memory only.
So theists are taught holding of the law mass O is in cosmic law a huge binding.
Anything less is then involved in holding by the supplementary saving pressure being ice.
Fake. Based on a long time dead human man memory of man. A non God earth mass origin once existed removed. Huge planet like other planets. Earths natural history.
Brothers agreed theism. Nature existed. The man first. Just from eternal.
But the eternal previously had manifested mother's life. Father's life. Most of life had demanifested as eternal didn't belong in created creation.
Large group of men on earth alone. Origin man of sciences position. Why he said he'd build a machine that would time shift his bio life. It's exact terms of theory by bio conscious.
That status is memory. Known and aware for you to have understood that manifested human life had in fact returned back into eternal. You'd seen it. Why it's in memory.
You science self were hence the non sexual man. You hadn't gone back. Your memory said you were stuck on earth you didn't belong.
Also a directly expressed human thought now..
Exact positions in memory.
Now earths origin science mass is gone. In its place with your death is a thought known.... a long time ago is hot sun star mass. I'm deceased myself.
A long time thought cosmic history the travelling star you caused now emerged. So you theory a time frame by your memory condition to emerging gods star rock.. all fake.
A long time coming is a stars mass coming into its gods rich being. Theme a body of riches resource. Exact all your thoughts. Wrong thoughts.
The resource. God coming arriving your messages in theism science.
Long count. Man knows. Man of god scientific thesis knows. Why such evils are taught in the context thesis.
Our holy father memories. After the ice age I came out of the eternal life as the human returned with mother to live again.
Theme ice saviour exact. Ice made their life come back out. Heavens pressure a reactive pulsing moving heavens caused it again.
Innocent meek natural holy human. Natural humanity.
Youre not there in that history. Brother theist cosmic believer.
Then the burning star of dinosaurs earths heavens returned as it had bern ignited and came back. Direct hit. Mass of star given as holding once passed then brings it aligned to a direct earth hit. By mass gone.
So Muslim humanity Egyptian brain bio life science caused Sacrificed. Now by ceremony move around a cosmic stone. Exact memory why. Life attacked.
Burnt the non sexual man is known man's historical causes. New scientist mind baby man. Not holy father. Is exact.
Theist emerges as the evil man's mind. Builds civilisation stating I now own my god status owner of the rock of earth. Yet he never did. Secondary hierarchy is I own all of earth.
I make a system civilisation rich king lord..... if you want to live I made you slave. You then pay me by my human only false system.
As I implemented as men all status artificial myself for control over God.
You then can have food. Live survive by slavery in civilisation.
Mr Banker rich man Satan society. Exact known stated and referenced self history of baby human man.
Father said. The saviour teaching for man scientist. Was for his families father mother human equality teaching warnings. Not you. It's about you.
Why he won't budge from his rich man's self status. Title.
Space womb cosmic mother birthed earths saviour as water to ice. Ice cosmic wombs holy saviour.
Although water existed before ice in burning space. Energy evolving. It was by mass pressure water was evolving it with space into ice.
Father said why holy man's warnings said my cosmic wisdom is womb space mother the saviour only. No satanisms about burning energy or cooling of is holy.
As pressure is a huge part of creations holding.
Why coat of many colours heavens saviour mantle was not mans father. Taught exact. Anyone affected in mind by it wasn't telling humans accurate truth. As life is mutual equal only.
Your conclusions would own no self idolisations. Knowing as yet the saviour ice mass has not returned it's earth body accumulation.
A future would.
Exact taught scientific advice.
In dinosaurs life cold blood their ice was present atmospheric.... it just could not manifest. As gases of earths heavens were very hot.
Why it was igniting cold god star wanderers asteroids. That were close to earth.
Only after the huge earth attack extinction did ice be enabled to return as a pressure body.
As father taught you Atlantis earth was in fact a cold earth non alight heavens. Beautiful planet facure. Sun burnt melted converted it.
So cold pressure crystal mass was rocks first saviour body.
Then ice returned and took its place. Saved earth from exploding scattering losing its core as others had.
Hence by the loss of the fruits of life existing the core is removed the warning of pressures holding it. Fruit core a direct symbolic teaching.
A humans scientific teaching.
All life is human as human. We are mutual equal and family. We are only human inside earths heavens walking on the ground. Direct advice ignored.
We walk on God.
And brother human man theist is possessed by his cosmic space themes is exact. Was already known he was. The answers all belonged to first human scientist on earth.
A greater earths mass. Higher amount of and his self man more spiritual and holier. Than who he is and why he compares himself to first man today. Himself. He is not some Rock returning.
Just humans memory only.
So theists are taught holding of the law mass O is in cosmic law a huge binding.
Anything less is then involved in holding by the supplementary saving pressure being ice.
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That is exactly what does happen.
Yet as I offered in this OP, every time a Messenger is sent, the people use the same arguments against them, arguments that basically boil down to that person's interpretation of scripture.
Just like you have chosen to do with Baha'u'llah. Yet the Messengers come to tell us we have not interpreted the scriptures correctly, so that the quandary.
So we come back to the fruits. Can you prove Baha'u'llah was untruthful? I will offer no Imam in the age Baha'u'llah lived, was able to prove Baha'u'llah as untruthful.
Regards Tony
None of the above is remotely relevant to the question I raised. Here it is again.
You are trying to authenticate messengers. But you are using the words or claims of the messengers themselves as the guidelines to authenticate them! That is a vicious regress. You need an external agreed upon standard independent from the words found in the messenger's words to do this if it is to be a rational endeavor.
Do you have an answer to this objection?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Any human who says I'm self saving by my man life presence and intelligence now.
As a human is their own self.
Owned.
Your man as human thoughts are your own. You read the document. You think for yourself. You are alive now. Exact position.
Argument is legal using past evidence as human only referral.
Self owned. Is the mutual equal human teaching. Now. Life as equals.
The teacher man human life sacrificed taught you why they were bodily consciously and changed. Legal document it's owned evidence. Is keeping records
They used human healer medical genesis advice. Human DNA seen witnessed living life body changed.
Taught you mountains were witnessed UFO ark science caused an attack and its face fell into dusts.
Dusts to dusts.
Highest teacher was the most sacrificed man's life. Is the witness.
Muhammad teachings said his own body hurt genesis barely survived. By his mother's life genesis.
Shroud evidence Proved it wasn't Bahuallah. He had a lesser teaching is exact.
He was shot sacrificed by his human brother.
He didn't die from his natural life bio body wounds is the exact advice only.
Bore the marks on his body of the sacrifice. Was the teaching.
Father said the English father had bore those signs. Why the crusades were Eurpoean. Shroud image European.
In the era new nuclear man's psyche advice from Satan's falling star caused. 1000 AD time frame from 0 count..... Muslim men were returning to the mind agreement let's rebuild re establish pyramid temple sciences.
Of their Egyptian predecessors.
As it's a proven man's psyche possession. Russia's hit then resurgent man's self bio identification with nuclear states is our proof.
Exact. It came from suns star fall only. Brain mind changes chemistry.
Science wasn't of earth.
As a human is their own self.
Owned.
Your man as human thoughts are your own. You read the document. You think for yourself. You are alive now. Exact position.
Argument is legal using past evidence as human only referral.
Self owned. Is the mutual equal human teaching. Now. Life as equals.
The teacher man human life sacrificed taught you why they were bodily consciously and changed. Legal document it's owned evidence. Is keeping records
They used human healer medical genesis advice. Human DNA seen witnessed living life body changed.
Taught you mountains were witnessed UFO ark science caused an attack and its face fell into dusts.
Dusts to dusts.
Highest teacher was the most sacrificed man's life. Is the witness.
Muhammad teachings said his own body hurt genesis barely survived. By his mother's life genesis.
Shroud evidence Proved it wasn't Bahuallah. He had a lesser teaching is exact.
He was shot sacrificed by his human brother.
He didn't die from his natural life bio body wounds is the exact advice only.
Bore the marks on his body of the sacrifice. Was the teaching.
Father said the English father had bore those signs. Why the crusades were Eurpoean. Shroud image European.
In the era new nuclear man's psyche advice from Satan's falling star caused. 1000 AD time frame from 0 count..... Muslim men were returning to the mind agreement let's rebuild re establish pyramid temple sciences.
Of their Egyptian predecessors.
As it's a proven man's psyche possession. Russia's hit then resurgent man's self bio identification with nuclear states is our proof.
Exact. It came from suns star fall only. Brain mind changes chemistry.
Science wasn't of earth.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Where did Abraham claim to be a manifestation of God? And... do Baha'is consider Adam and Noah to be manifestations? If so, when did they claim to be manifestations? If not, what do Baha'is consider them? Then even Moses... When did he make the claim to be a manifestation of God?
Then about people and their fruits... Who never produces some rotten fruit sometimes? Then the other problem... If we take just Christianity, we can have a Catholic doing a lot of good, because of what they believe about Jesus. But, according to Baha'is, it is wrong. Especially that thing about Jesus being God. Oh, and that Satan is real. Same with Mormons, JW's or Fundy Christians, Baha'is don't believe that they teach the truth about God and Jesus. Yet, some produce some good fruit, but not all the time. So, it's not necessary for a person to believe in something true to do good works and produce good fruit. What helps, though, is that, even though it is a false belief, they believe it and apply it to their lives.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
And giving no evidence of his existence or of his recruitment of messengers.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But, if we took the words we have of all the people that Baha'is claim to be messengers/manifestation, would we find in their words any claims of being the type of messengers/manifestations that Baha'is claim them to be? I don't think any of the ones from Judaism ever made such a claim. And what about Buddha? Or Krishna or any of the other Avatars in Hinduism? Did any of them claim to be the type of messenger/manifestation as believed by Baha'is?
Which then leads to the next problem... Baha'is do have a way to explain it. What Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith says about those people is what is true, regardless of what the religions of those people believe and say about them. So, they are not using the claims made by these people, they are using what Baha'is claim about them. And before Tony gets all weird on me, maybe the Baha'is are right... Which then makes what all the other religions believe about their own people wrong.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Would you care to check if the information is correct, for example, Bahaollah saying that Noah lived for nine hundred and a score of years? Do you believe that?
Everything is pre-existent and eternal, even a lump of cow-dung. It was grass before the cow ate it. It will be ash and carbon-DI-exide after it is burnt.
Don't cite God or soul without first proving its existence.
Without evidence it is certainly blind belief.
Don't you know? I know perfectly well what I am created of.