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There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father's true life warning's is about rich man's mind state. Baby man adult mind was lost burnt by earth gained Satan's star fall.

Exact.

Led to civilisation status.

Was by a one of mind change only. First position once.

Then he built technology and man held a non stop fall of above earths owned rock cold gass mass fallout.

As sun mass wasn't origin earths origin volcano gas mass. Earth itself hadn't owned it.

Crystalline facure cooling had. Proof clear cold gas owned a huge pressurised mass body too.

End of earths cooling in volcanic mass pressure crystalline. Was a huge body mass pressures.

Why Atlantis became sAtanlit. Earths warning teaching.

So father said dismantle your haarp constant. Ice cannot support cooling its transmitter feedback input. Stop nuclear converting. Carbon mass in mind thought is dangerous. Taught by earth gas fallout burning through the carbon mass.

Which can ignite it.

Carbon mass only affects our oxygen supply.

We can get by if power plants shut. The asteroid heating is by its bodies passing hot earth space by increased gas mass burning will.cool.

Gas spirit Sacrificed the exact premise warning.

I believe he knows what he's talking about.

We are in a human aware one of only moment.

As father said in his life beginnings healthy man. Earth had as highest bio life owned less ice mass presence. More oxygenated water.

We've given that status to ourselves now. By science causes. Without oxygen generation. Water advice only.

Yet a huge mass of ice presence covered all of earth. After star fall obliterated bio life on earth.

So ice mass first by mass first important hierarchy. Before bio life existed was ice mass.

As deserts today have proven instant ice snap freeze can occur .... once it had covered the ground. Why ice melt sank through the sands into underground tunnel cavities.

Where fresh water came from in the iced desert melt saving of sand. Moses Egyptian terms sand gained nuclear glass in attack. Proof cooling removed.

Hence Moses was proven real. Humans were holy life not mutated man life first.

The thesis argument men of science pretending a mutated human type of man lived in first position.

Virtually puts life by theory into reinventing causes plus increasing Moses attack on biology like a dinosaurs attack.

As science is not theorising microbe life nature garden dinosaurs living. The life alien to ours.

Bio man life mutated is back past father bio health into a type of unnatural man's beast term mutated life.

As ice mass was replaced after Egyptian attack and water cooled by ice mass presence that then could regenerate oxygen.

Saviour ice had saved natural biology.

So before Romes as ignorance personified reapplied their new stonehenge model. The returned life bio position was correct.

Saviour ice gave life back its origin bio position.

The only reason it survived attack upon it again. As it wasn't mutated first.

Ice remassing waters cooling cooled gases allowed oxygens regeneration.

Trees now bear near self combustion activation hence it cannot oxygenate our water.

So we inherit all breathing causes. Plus Too much carbon causes not enough oxygen.

So father directly gave you a one of chance of owning a Slim opportunity of saving life on earth.

Just because greedy men who gave themselves all advices wanted his lifestyle gluttony greed self idolisation...sexual misconduct. To be practised instead. Is the argument today.

Pretending today you are changing this behaviour is in fact proof to your own selves you are not being honest. As you aren't changing your behaviour. You pretend you are by a small rich man's population only.

And seemed possessed by expressing the behaviour. Is exact human agreed A alpha greed causes life destruction.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God has made us all with that capacity, the ability to communicate with God, is the capacity to know one's own self.

Thus the failure is one's own choice, a choice to not explore what we are actually created of.

If this god being and I have the capacity to communicate directly then why waste time sending mysterious 'messengers' speaking hearsay? I have not failed to explore where we were actually created from. All of the verifiable evidence suggests that we're the product of natural processes. Until your god-being decides to provide some alternate evidence that isn't hearsay, it's the only verifiable evidence there is. That's not a failure on my part, but rather a failure of your god being to provide sufficient evidence.
As if we haven't heard all the stories before. Every religion and every sect of every religion that believes it has "The Truth" tell us all the time why they are right. How easy it is to see that God is everywhere. That he is there in the Scriptures and in the hearts of the believers. But the definitions of who God is and what he wants is different between the different religions.

If we get to "know" the Jesus of the born-again Christians, we are denying the Baha'i God and the Gods of the other religions. Even if we accept the Baha'i God, we are still denying that the beliefs of all the other religions are true. Because, even with the Baha'is, the only thing true about the other religions is what the Baha'i Faith says is true about them.

Verifiable? Sure, all you got to do is believe that Baha'u'llah was sent by God, and that makes everything he wrote the infallible Truth. Which is what Fundy Christian do also, except with the Bible. Then what? Baha'is tell us why we can't believe in the Bible as interpreted by Fundy Christians. And the Christians tell why we can't believe in the Baha'i Faith.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Fact. Men of science Satanism say the alien position is God.

Old teachers of theism philosophy said earths Rock is highest position held by fused crystalline particles.

Only god form. Supporting owning gods gas heavens. Slight relying on ice crystalline mass water pressure.

Men saying alien is God first is sun mass particle gas above us burning. Mind interference only. Asteroid dust of a cold sun mass direct.

Asteroid dust is higher mass nuclear.

If it's given above cooling by ices melt. It accumulates in one of fixed position. Manifests like a humans machine part as metal mass. Cause effect of a human thesis to shift transport mass of ground.

As it's a light metal the vacuum saved us from its fall attack by sucking it back out. Why cooling gas propulsion moves it until it's light enough to be sucked out.

As on earth our earth metals.... it's not earth mass first position with nuclear mass impregnated. Heavier metal mass.

As earths pressure of Rock is different to the gas pressure above.

Alien is an invasion attack manifesting as... all warning signs.

Intelligent humans know no alien is a God.

The argument in human theisms is earth was invaded by asteroid Rock mass first. No alien.

As God theories realised teaching.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Theme is no man is God.

Gods theisms by man was only via receipt of. Stone rock asteroid to be a man.

Biologies of man advice.

To remain a man on earth only believe in gods type rock stone.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
As if we haven't heard all the stories before. Every religion and every sect of every religion that believes it has "The Truth" tell us all the time why they are right. How easy it is to see that God is everywhere. That he is there in the Scriptures and in the hearts of the believers. But the definitions of who God is and what he wants is different between the different religions.

If we get to "know" the Jesus of the born-again Christians, we are denying the Baha'i God and the Gods of the other religions. Even if we accept the Baha'i God, we are still denying that the beliefs of all the other religions are true. Because, even with the Baha'is, the only thing true about the other religions is what the Baha'i Faith says is true about them.

Verifiable? Sure, all you got to do is believe that Baha'u'llah was sent by God, and that makes everything he wrote the infallible Truth. Which is what Fundy Christian do also, except with the Bible. Then what? Baha'is tell us why we can't believe in the Bible as interpreted by Fundy Christians. And the Christians tell why we can't believe in the Baha'i Faith.
Teaching.

Every time new god star asteroid arrives it aligns to known ice saviour mass not melting mass. Body maintains. Christ gases bodily remain.

Human biology in nation remains the same exact country nations tribal memories. Religious nation owned only.

Satan falling ignited star returned nation tribal family DNA gets attacked. New man's teachings emerge. DNA family changes in some of their community is exact.

In Jerusalem area Jews. Became by Roman science attack Jewish Christian DNA tribal advice. As DNA changed again.

After Roman Nero burning began changing their Roman DNA they agreed with teaching. As it's a fact genesis plus consciousness of man changes.

Why one man's national DNA family owns no right preaching anywhere else. It's personally national.

One humanity is every tribal family United membership human families governing only. Not any nation.

Just as you once knew yet now ignore.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I will offer no Imam in the age Baha'u'llah lived, was able to prove Baha'u'llah as untruthful.
Bahaollah was clearly and absolutely untruthful regarding the age of Noah. 900+ years! And people did not and do not question it!
What he said was OK for uneducated gullible Iranians living in villages in 19th Century or in Tehran.
It simply amazes me as to what kind of things people come to believe in. Average life expectacy was below 35 years till 1875.

350px-Life_expectancy_by_world_region%2C_from_1770_to_2018.svg.png

Life expectancy - Wikipedia
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Moses an everyday human innocent Sacrificed Life of man. Stated. Everyday slave life.

Said his genetic life type body was adopted by egyptians themselves using pyramid technology. Rich family.

As advised everyday man's life hurt taught. So challenges the rich men hierarchy. And his lies.

So rich man said I hence began by being notified of a change of waters laws to become bodily sacrificed.

As in temple science striking began unnaturally out of their machine technology.

As you don't read the advice correctly today.

Reed law of plant life was in holy water. Changed. As oxygen supply by plant life removed. Salting caused instead.

A alpha man. Using Nile holy water answer was....
alien.

A Nile.
A lie N.
Alien term. By Nile A alpha quotes.

I was taught what I caused. It visited us they said the above in gods chariots is how he explained.

Designed wisdom was sun to cloud origins.

As explained to me.

The portions of earths God ground machines still left existing in mass metal. Emerged above destroying life by gods Egyptian man caused chariot.

Term moving vehicle is how it's explained. Flying machine explanation hadn't existed. Direct inference said of man's owned caused design.

Split sea mass....sea and earth mass shifted.

Old cities now under sea.
Land sea evaporated was fresh water supply first.

Ground tectonic erupted in new sin holes pock marked everywhere. Salted new chemicals emerged out of ground state as many colours in salted fresh water causes.

Lucky to still own any fresh water.

Mayans underground water was so polluted and no longer drinkable.

Who was left living then left in Mayan area also.

Ground notably scorched in that vicinity same as Egyptian sand melt.

Yes you lying satanist brothers scientist caused it.

You and I innocent humans horrified. Our brother gets titillated by the thought of owning gods powers.

Therefore 1000 years is evolution power of 10. 100 years is man's living aged DNA.

900 term Noah stated why flooding occurred saving life's spirit of heavens cold gas support and water cooled.

Was exact flooding was saving our life. Yet flooding destroys our life.

You ignore the advice as you wanted it read as a new scientific thesis. And it never was.

Science is maths man calculated. Used to build design what he wants to control. To react earths mass.

Science is founded on man's human awareness how to react earths mass first position natural. It's direct advice. It's known advice is direct to earths mass first.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Updated nuclear plant design. Old style similar pyramid floor plan is involved as you compare the plan design.

Learnt by human bio evolution mind how to implement cooling control. Old design never owned it or understood. Pyramid nuclear. Cooling.

So new model is exact to mans mind brain design advice. Pressure in the design water cooling. Evolved thinker modern man.

Only after new nuclear mass of gods earth body removed do you get the design destroyer collider. To end what a pyramid design under man's control never achieved.

All bio life removed in total by mass number to bio age thesis. After ice age.

It's why you keep trying to trace it. Possessed.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Bahaollah was clearly and absolutely untruthful regarding the age of Noah. 900+ years! And people did not and do not question it!
What he said was OK for uneducated gullible Iranians living in villages in 19th Century or in Tehran.
It simply amazes me as to what kind of things people come to believe in.

Maybe you are unaware what the Bible offered.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Men said the bible offered them eternal life with God.

God doesn't own eternal life.

It once was in eternal hell as a planet.

Above us is the same atmospheric gas burning dust mass in voiding eternal hell.

Where the light of sciences energy constant is. In hell.

Now earths heavens isn't mass so our gas plus dust mass of suns eternal hell above isn't gods the Rock history.

Was Satanists promise. About giving God to humanity in its science.

Teaching said why a heavens eternal hell sacrifice above isn't the same as gods earth hell history below.

As it's science cause effect testimony you're reading.

God earth sealed. Gods heavens natural.

Humans live and humans bio die as the human life in healer science is exact. Same heavens advice. You live and die in the same heavens balances.

When you read a book of human theory it's what you're reciting.

Once only legal interpreters were allowed to read it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is exactly what does happen.

Yet as I offered in this OP, every time a Messenger is sent, the people use the same arguments against them, arguments that basically boil down to that person's interpretation of scripture.

Just like you have chosen to do with Baha'u'llah. Yet the Messengers come to tell us we have not interpreted the scriptures correctly, so that the quandary.

So we come back to the fruits. Can you prove Baha'u'llah was untruthful? I will offer no Imam in the age Baha'u'llah lived, was able to prove Baha'u'llah as untruthful.

Regards Tony

How would I prove to you, when whatever proofs I offer, you will simply say it's my opinion and interpretation.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I offered in this OP to explore the fruits of the Messenger.

What are the fruits of a Messenger?
When did Christianity really began to takeoff? When was it the most dominate? During those times what were the major beliefs and doctrines, and did it only have "good" fruit? Early on Christianity came up with the belief in the Trinity and several other beliefs that Baha'is believe to be wrong. Can a true religion from God have false beliefs as part of their doctrines? In its history Christianity had things like the Inquisition, burning people at the stake for being witches and in recent times problems with priests having sex with young boys and big-name preachers having affairs and embezzling money. So, do you think it is true that a good tree can't bear bad fruit?

And what about the opposite? Can a man-made religion bring forth good fruit? For example, the Sikhs? Do Baha'is believe them to be a true religion that has been revealed by God through a manifestation? I don't think Baha'is do. In fact, unless someone else mentions them, I don't know if Baha'is ever bring up the Sikhs. But if we go by good fruit, who has more good fruit then the Sikhs? I'm sure you'd cast your vote for the Baha'i Faith... that it must be from God, because it is a religious tree that is just budding and bearing fruit all over the place. Maybe so, but what else needs to be considered before we declare the Baha'i Faith the newest and truest of all the religions?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The circumstance.

Once a father in his nation owned the same DNA.

Then it separated in caused atmospheric heavens fallout.

Tribal father's of their own lineage by sex emerged.

In that psychic condition you own messages of advice that pre living father man hadn't owned.

As you get changed.

As you are having the experience.

Men who lived in with their father their nation their extended family. Knew to be advised was of utmost importance for everyone. The causes. The history. The man not listening to his first advice.

No man is a God and man's science converting evil.

When we die we know we still have another experience. It's not science. It's not answerable to science.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.
Indeed.
As Stephen F Roberts said... "When you understand why you reject other gods, you will understand why I reject yours".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

Regards Tony
So a large number of followers is indicative of the truth?
So Christianity is the truest religion, Islam not quite as true, Hinduism is fairly true, and Bahaism not really true. Is that right?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Let's put it this way.

It's hard if not completely impossible to be a messenger of something, anything, that has never been seen or heard by anyone other than arguably, its human proclaimer.


That's my argument used against messengers.

You need the one sending the message first, otherwise it firmly remains heresy and conjecture at best.
Indeed. I always say that before you can claim to be a messenger of god, you first have to show that god exists. The Bahai response is the utterly circular, "the messenger is proof of the god".
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's like saying if the sun rises in the sky each day, who could deny the sun? If the sun is REALLY in the sky, why would anyone want the 'freedom' to disbelieve it? The only time I want the 'freedom' to disbelieve is if the something I disbelieve in actually does not exist.

But even if this god being made itself know by directly communicating, everyone would still have the freedom to believe that this being is not worthy of worship. What's likely to convince me that this being doesn't exist or that if it does exist it's not worthy of worship is to send messengers telling me this being is real and is worthy of my worship, without ever making an attempt to communicate with me itself.

But if you saw the greatness, awe and majesty of God, I don’t believe you would do anything other than worship Him, and God does not seek mechanical, robotic worship based on intellectual proof but our love and that can only be given voluntarily not based on proof. That’s just my opinion.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Indeed. I always say that before you can claim to be a messenger of god, you first have to show that god exists. The Bahai response is the utterly circular, "the messenger is proof of the god".
Precisely.

All it relates to, is essentially a person running around proclaiming this and that on behalf of whatnot, while flapping his or her arms like a chicken soley on the basis that someone else prior, was running around flapping their arms while squawking like a chicken.

It's very circular and clearly contained within the circle of squawkers for which really means nothing to those watching such a spectacle.
 

idea

Question Everything
Well followers of an ideal, but not in any real way past the notion. Messengers of that perhaps, but nothing beyond that as I see it.

For me, it is best to follow ideals NOT people. That is fine to encourage people to be kind, just, honest, hard-working - to do these things not because someone said so, but for natural rewards.

As soon as anyone tells others "because I said so", that is a control freak who is not to be trusted.

Follow ideals. NOT people. Yes, some people - some of the time - are examples of ideals, but it is the idea, not the person, to follow, with the understanding that people change and are not the idea itself.

I would extend this to the concept of God as well - I do not believe in any actual person/spirit/God, so use that word to represent the highest ideals. When talking with friends/family who are believers - praying etc, they might not know it - I am not praying to any person - but am praying for us to follow good ideals.
 
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