Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Certainly, but not spirit
Empty ad hominem.
It can be, but would you accept if it was simply a biological function of the mind and nerves? Probably not.
It already is, but still no evidence of spirit.
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There is no contradiction in Religion and Science
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5317066/2002-walter-corpses-gold.pdf
This is a routine reality in the Himalayas, mytsicism is not what happens in our heads, it deals with the real noumenal world of God out there.
Atheists deserve that.
Some of the involuntary movements are happening at exact specific exercise movements and its not random, you won't see those movements while you're on stress while running or trekking but it only happens when you do pranayama and hatha yoga, that shows that there is deep science involved in this.
It already is, but still no evidence of spirit.
See the above link. Atheism is dead.
There really is no reason to conflate non-spirituality with atheism.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
So was beating on drums to scare away creatures which were eating the sun and moon. Your point?
As much as theists deserve to be told the same.
Deep science yes. Spirit? No such evidence.
I saw the above link, and its total lack of scientific inquiry. Obviously the only thing dead here is your abilities of analysis.
Planets (revolving around other stars) should have been thought of as nonexistant until science had the technology to prove them???? Even though scientists thought they were very likely.
Before the proof, my belief would have been that they are very likely. Your belief would have been they are nonexistant.
you take this as leave to speculate anything you fancy has the same chance of being real. I... don't see this as being useful.
I can speculate anything I want but my 'objective analysis from all sides' will determine whether I believe it is real. If I speculate on pink unicorns, my analysis tells me to believe they are not real. I do often speculate on spirits and my analysis tells me there's something going on outside the range of current scientific understanding.
My point being, with all your Phds, can you raise the dead from the grave?
No, think twice before you criticize the theist's position. All evidence is pointing to a theistic view of our existence.
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger on Unreality
Its not based on the scientific method but that doesn't change the fact that in reality Vetalas and Rolangs do exist.
Mandala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You scientists and atheists need to learn from them and not the other way around.
According to the psychologist David Fontana, its symbolic nature can help one "to access progressively deeper levels of the unconscious, ultimately assisting the meditator to experience a mystical sense of oneness with the ultimate unity from which the cosmos in all its manifold forms arises."[6]
The cosmos is very different from the scientific consensus. That's why I said, atheists should open their eyes and see the world more clearly, I am just pleading for basic observation not to worship anything.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
My point being, there is no evidence to suggest someone has.
Only if you foolishly believe mind dictates quantum events.
Of course. However, it does show that you can't prove a damn thing.
I agree. Psychology and evolutionary biology would benefit greatly from further analysis of meditative practices.
And as I said, theists should follow suit.
"Vetalas were hugely important in the practice of early Buddhist Tantra in India. The Tantric scriptures contain extensive descriptions of the rites needed to raise vetalas, and the purposes to which they can be put. Slaves are useful; a supernatural slave is especially useful, particularly when you need to accomplish supernatural tasks. On the other hand, raising a vetala is always dangerous: if it escapes your control, it will kill you, and probably many other people, until someone more competent subdues it.
In the Himalayas, rolangs are currently regarded as a routine reality: both a common practical problem and a persistent serious danger. There is an enormous amount of folk-lore (in addition to scripture) concerning them."
As I said atheists are blind and they don't want to see the evidence.
Bernard d'Espagnat a French theoretical physicist best known for his work on the nature of reality wrote a paper titled The Quantum Theory and Reality according to the paper: "The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment."
[60] In an article in the Guardian titled Quantum weirdness: What we call 'reality' is just a state of mind d'Espagnat wrote that:
"What quantum mechanics tells us, I believe, is surprising to say the least. It tells us that the basic components of objects the particles, electrons, quarks etc. cannot be thought of as "self-existent". He further writes that his research in quantum physics has lead him to conclude that an "ultimate reality" exists, which is not embedded in space or time.[61]
Only you have to call others foolish while people will surely laugh at you.
The existence of life force is already proved to be a well established fact.
It trumps evolutionary psychology.
It should be atheists.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
What evidence? Where is the evidence? If you admit folkloric writings as solid evidence, do you also believe in leprechauns? How about kelpies? kappas? No? Why not?
...which has diddly-squat to do with a mind controlling quantum events. Your point?
Let them laugh. It's all they have to hold on to.
Of course, as an emergent system of physics, which has nothing to do with spirit.
How so? Would you also say gravity "trumped" ancient peoples? Lack of analysis (which you seem to elevate to mystical status) proves nothing, literally.
Your persistent bias is noted.
"All these processes are based on a manipulation of prana, which is concentrated and directed by recitation of mantra, service to spiritual beings, etc.22"
I know that there is enough evidence for the existence of life force, prana and I know that the existence of Rolangs is a routine reality in this part of the world and these evidences are sufficient to state that spirits exists. It is a fact.
Your quarks, protons, electrons and even your brain don't exist independent of the human mind, what we call empirical reality is only a state of mind - Bernard D'Espagnat. Mind is a product of the divine and its already a well established fact.
It proves that we are truly made in the image of God.
Your likes and dislikes has no bearing in reality. You can keep believing in any damn thing you want even after available evidence contradicting it.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Could you present the evidence and it's sources?
I doubt that very much. I doubt such a presumption can even have evidence.
Lack of analysis proves we are made the image of God? That doesn't make any sense.
Dangers of Yoga: Side effects - Websites and articles
It is a fact that people are falling unconscious while performing Hatha yoga and getting hurt and more and more people are getting hurt as they are unable to bear the power of Prana raising in them and surprisingly the scientific and the medical community is absolutely silent about it.
Why the heck people are not falling unconscious and getting hurt while running or while trekking but only when they do pranayama and Hatha yoga reciting the magic spells of the Vedic cosmology?
Once the existence of Prana as already been a well established fact one is not far away from explaining that spirits exists.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5317066/2002-walter-corpses-gold.pdf
Just because other religions of the world doesn't have any evidence doesn't imply that no other religion has evidence for it.
What we call reality is indeed only a state of mind and this mind is the product of the divine.
It makes perfect sense. Science itself is saying that what we call reality is only a state of mind.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
People also regularly lose consciousness at Jonas Brothers concerts. Do they also possess some sort of mystical/divine power? People hurting themselves or losing consciousness doesn't demonstrate supernatural causation.
Again, Jonas Brothers concert. I personally have known three people who have collapsed while trekking, and about five people who have collapsed during concerts. I have a cousin who fainted because she thought she saw Justin Bieber on the street. It's not proof of supernatural causation.
Do you have any?
Evidence, please.
No, it isn't. Please find me a quote from a single scientist to that effect.
Along with falling unconscious they are experiencing spontaneous involuntary movements and the rushing energy of Prana in them and its not random, its happening at specific steps. There is no other explanation for it, the prediction perfectly fits with the theory.
I can quote from a lot of scientists not one.
Bernard d'Espagnat: What we call 'reality' is just a state of mind | Science | guardian.co.uk
Bernard D'Espagnat is one, "Rather than passively observing it, we in fact create reality" - Vladko Vedral, he is an another.
There is some real science involved here and its a fact claim.
If there is ever a Law of both Religion and Science then this is it,
"What we call empirical reality is only a state of mind"
Remember I am not claiming it, scientists themselves are claiming it. There is no contradiction between Religion and Science. Enough evidence for your rational minds?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
People having fits is not proof that those fits were caused by supernatural sources. A fit is a fit, nothing more. Until you can demonstrate that these fits have a supernatural cause, this argument is moot.
They aren't talking scientifically, they are talking poetically. There is no means by which to demonstrate, scientifically, that reality doesn't exist.
Could you present some, then?
There is some real science involved here and its a fact claim.
And, like anything that attempts to combine religion and science, it is void of any purpose or meaning.
No, they're not. You've quoted two scientists, neither of which were talking in literal, scientific terms.
Not even the tiniest bit of evidence has been presented, thus far.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2007/apr/20/quantum-physics-says-goodbye-to-reality
Like I said, your personal incredulity, your likes and dislikes has no bearing in reality. You can go on and believe in any damn thing you want when all evidence is contradicting that belief.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
And you can take whatever scientific articles you want and interpret them as evidence of your unscientific beliefs all you want - it doesn't mean your beliefs have a basis in fact. All you've been able to present so far are two out-of-context quotes and the creative titles of a few articles about theoretical physics. Not a single one makes the same claims as you, nor do any of them support your assertions in any way or with any references to facts whatsoever. The very idea of evidence existing that demonstrates reality isn't real is completely self-defeating and nonsensical.
I hope you can read basic English.
Read what the researchers say, its a fact claim, an experimental claim.
Anton Zeilenger and other physicist are noble prize winners and it is they who have concluded about the nature of reality.
Its an active research carried out by philosophers, scholars and scientists.
You can go on and believe in damn nonsense thing you want despite all evidence contradicting it. If there is anyone misrepresenting things its obviously you.
MD
qualiaphile
To be honest there's some evidence that our minds are separate properties, are intertwined with reality and create an aspect of it, but it's more suggestive of a neutral monist perspective rather than idealism. However there are many prominent neuro scientists and quantum physicists who hold these views.
1) Consciousness collapses wave forms (speculative)
2) Qualia
3) Intentionality
4) Quantum mind theories
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This is a myth, a misunderstanding. It takes a physical instrument to "observe" the wave function. They process of physically observing the particle is collapsing the wavefunction because it stops the unpredictable spin/location of the electron.