• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
People base their lives on all manner
of false certainities.

Blind faith is btw anything but an "oxymoron".

Most notably in religious/ "spiritual" matters.

Your bible agrees. Hebrews 111. " Now faith...
things unseen".
I think your sharing of Hebrews 11:1 omitted the critical elements:

"…faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is "the substance."

Faith is "the evidence."

Paul did not teach the Hebrews that faith was the thing "hoped for" or the "things not seen." He did not teach them that faith was belief.

What in earth could " faith not based on belief" be?
The question contains insufficient information. To answer the question we'd have to know what the faith in question is based on.

If we look back at the faith of which Paul spoke, faith is based on something of substance…on evidence of something real but that isn't seen. He repeatedly equated faith with promises received by those who possessed the faith in question, indicating that the promise of the thing constituted the faith, and that the promise was a thing of substance—the evidence of the reality of the thing promised—because the giver of the promise could be trusted to deliver (see verse 11).

Does that clarify why I assert that real faith is never blind? Real faith can't be. It's based on something substantial and evidential, not mere hope or belief.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
A word game ( thinly) disguised as an obscure claim of arcane knowledge.
Paul the Apostle taught what I'm saying. If he was playing word games, then I am, too. But I do agree that knowledge of the nature of real faith is arcane, as are all the simple truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Last edited:

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
No all faith.
Because any version of faith you use, I promise, it's used in Islam and Hinduism as well to demonstrate the truth of their book as words from God. The only truth. As do Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who say you will go right to hell or be left behind at the rapture, coming soon.
I understand. There are many voices claiming to speak the truth.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think your sharing of Hebrews 11:1 omitted the critical elements:

"…faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is "the substance."

Faith is "the evidence."

Paul did not teach the Hebrews that faith was the thing "hoped for" or the "things not seen." He did not teach them that faith was belief.


The question contains insufficient information. To answer the question we'd have to know what the faith in question is based on.

If we look back at the faith of which Paul spoke, faith is based on something of substance…on evidence of something real but that isn't seen. He repeatedly equated faith with promises received by those who possessed the faith in question, indicating that the promise of the thing constituted the faith, and that the promise was a thing of substance—the evidence of the reality of the thing promised—because the giver of the promise could be trusted to deliver (see verse 11).

Does that clarify why I assert that real faith is never blind? Real faith can't be. It's based on something substantial and evidential, not mere hope or belief.
It's all just talk. Churning words.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
How does faith constitute evidence? What is faith evidence of?

Hebrews 11​
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.​
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.​

Faith is only what is hoped for, evidence is facts or information that can be seen and evaluated.
Through faith we cannot know that the worlds were framed by the word of God. We could only know that if there was evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search
Just a few minutes ago I replied to another poster who was asking a different question in response to the same post of mine you quoted, but I believe the new post addresses the content of your post as well. No point in writing it twice. It's right here: There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No it wasn't. It was molten rock, no water for over 1 billion years. It had to take massive impacts from asteroids and was molten.
Water came from Large asteroids over billions of years and accumulated.


The firmament is not real. It has windows to release rain.. A cosmic ocean above heaven, the stars below that.
Yeah, ok. It was likely a poetic description. Have a good one! :)
P.S. Scientists are realizing the earth was all water on the surface for quite a while.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No all faith.
Because any version of faith you use, I promise, it's used in Islam and Hinduism as well to demonstrate the truth of their book as words from God. The only truth. As do Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who say you will go right to hell or be left behind at the rapture, coming soon.
You have that entirely wrong about what the Bible says regarding hell, and it's sad that so many people misunderstand. I suggest you do a little research on what religions may believe about hell.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Then you are wrong, it does not provide evidence of being purpose driven. The idea that evolution could not do this with what is know about evolution shows you simply do not follow the science at all but continue to use 1960s apologetics. You do not "view the information". For that you follow the new papers as they come out.


Origin and Evolution of DNA and DNA Replication Machineries

"

Recent data from comparative genomics, structural biology and traditional biochemistry have revealed that several of these enzymatic activities have been invented independently more than once,"

God would not need several tries. This shows it was primed to be happening at this stage and the conditions were correct.


"


We are reasonably sure now that DNA and DNA replication mechanisms appeared late in early life history, and that DNA originated from RNA in an RNA/protein world. The origin and evolution of DNA replication mechanisms thus occurred at a critical period of life evolution that encompasses the late RNA world and the emergence of the Last Universal Cellular Ancestor (LUCA) to the present three domains of life (Eukarya, Bacteria and Archaea.).5-7 It is an exciting time to learn through comparative genomics and molecular biology about the details of modern mechanisms for precursor DNA synthesis and DNA replication, in order to trace their histories."

DNA was not created, it evolved naturally from RNA.


"


DNA can be considered as a modified form of RNA, since the “normal” ribose sugar in RNA is reduced into deoxyribose in DNA, whereas the “simple” base uracil is methylated into thymidine. In modern cells, the DNA precursors (the four deoxyribonucleoties, dNTPs) are produced by reduction of ribonucleotides di- or triphosphate by ribonucleotide reductases (fig. 1). The synthesis of DNA building blocks from RNA precursors is a major argument in favor of RNA preceding DNA in evolution. The direct prebiotic origin of is theoretically plausible (from acetaldehyde and glyceraldehyde-5-phosphate) but highly unlikely, considering that evolution, as stated by F. Jacob, works like a tinkerer, not an engineer.8,9"


More evidence RNA came first and is a simpler compound. Self replicating compounds that make up RNA have been shown to exist.

Also note
"considering that evolution, as stated by F. Jacob, works like a tinkerer, not an engineer.8,9"

Created DNA would be engineered. Evolution tinkers slowly and tries things, they fail and it tries other things, through mutation. HEre we see evolution does tinker. No God required. Just like in galaxy formation or any other natural process. Unconscious forces.


"
If DNA actually appeared in the RNA world, it was a priori possible to imagine that formation of the four dNTPs from the four rNTPs was initially performed by ribozymes. Most scientists, who consider that the reduction of ribose cannot be accomplished by an RNA enzyme, now reject this hypothesis."


More evidence from DNA emerging from RNA



"
A major question is why was DNA selected to replace RNA? The traditional explanation is that DNA replaced RNA as genetic material because it is more stable and can be repaired more faithfully.4 Indeed, removal of the 2' oxygen of the ribose in DNA has clearly stabilized the molecule, since this reactive oxygen can attack the phophodiester bond (this explains why RNA is so prone to strand breakage). In addition, the replacement of uracil by thymine has made possible to correct the deleterious effect of spontaneous cytosine deamination, since a misplaced uracil cannot be recognized in RNA, whereas it can be pint-pointed as an alien base in DNA and efficiently removed by repair systems. Replacement of RNA by DNA as genetic material has thus opened the way to the formation of large genomes, a prerequisite for the evolution of modern cells."


The puzzle is getting smaller, cellular evolution, DNA from RNA is becoming understood and eventually the entire process will be unlocked. No magic creator. Just self replicating chemicals and mutations.
Maybe you think scientists will eventually duplicate the process, making DNA from RNA and chemically produce RNA???
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
You have that entirely wrong about what the Bible says regarding hell, and it's sad that so many people misunderstand. I suggest you do a little research on what religions may believe about hell.
Everyone is already aware of the gamut of religious beliefs about Hell, and where the majority lie. Lay? I can never remember.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No all faith.
Because any version of faith you use, I promise, it's used in Islam and Hinduism as well to demonstrate the truth of their book as words from God. The only truth. As do Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who say you will go right to hell or be left behind at the rapture, coming soon.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but again I'm not sure where you're getting the (mis)information about hell and the future.
 

McBell

Unbound
That's up to you.
Why are you here on a religious forum? Have you found your god or do you have a religion without a god or are you here to throw stones at religions and their adherants?
I am interested in learning why people believe what they believe.

So far all I have really seen is people making bold empty claim after bold empty claim with nothing to back up their bold empty claim but more bold empty claims.

So I suspect it will take a while to learn the why behind the beliefs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Don't you think that seeing evidence for God is in the realm of theology and not only of theology but of personal theology, since different people might see different things.
Because God can be seen in nature, that does not make it the realm of science.
You are fooling yourself.
No, now you are just describing confirmation bias. That is not evidence either.

Being convinced for bad reasons only means that one's beliefs are irrational. It does not mean that you have evidence for a concept. You do not get to ignore science when you trespass into the realm of science.

And that is the problem with theistic claims. They are almost always irrational. Theists resist understanding what is and what is not evidence because the evidence does not support them.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No all faith.
Because any version of faith you use, I promise, it's used in Islam and Hinduism as well to demonstrate the truth of their book as words from God. The only truth. As do Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who say you will go right to hell or be left behind at the rapture, coming soon.
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses say about hell?

Do you know I believe that my Dad’s in hell? And he was a decent individual.

I believe that most all of Jehovah’s Witnesses who’ve died, are in hell / Sheol / hades.

That’s what the Bible states. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Even Jesus was in hell, for 3 days. — Psalm 16:11, Catholic Douay…
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.” Peter confirmed this was about Jesus @ Acts 2:25,27…. “For David saith concerning him:…Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.”

When a particular topic is being discussed, it would be best that you find out how JW’s explain these subjects from the Scriptures, before you lump us all together.

You’ll find our understanding is usually quite different than most of Christendom’s dogma.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Another evidence is the contrast between those who serve God, and those who don't.

Hmm, idk about that. I’m sure the atheists on this site are good folk, just like I give the benefit of the doubt that you are.
If I may add something, @nPeace … since you and I “speak in agreement (1 Corinthians 1:10)”:

@an anarchist , you seem to be a thinking & reasonable person.

What did Jesus say would identify his disciples? You’ll see, if you read John 13:34-35….

It’s love. Without any stipulations.

Regardless what race you are, what ethnicity you are, what nationality you are, what caste you are / where you fit in society.

If conflict arises between two or more countries, “those serving God” would be very distinct from “those who don’t.”

How can one be showing Christ-like love, and yet be supporting a conflict that takes lives?

Unfortunately, we see Christendom get involved in worldly hostilities all the time, don’t we?

But Jesus said to his followers, “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.”

See John 17:16.


So there is a big difference between those serving God and those who don’t.

Take care, my cousin.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I disagree...

When you say "RNA" naturally evolved... what evidenced do you have that it was natural? Who told RNA to develop a DNA? When was the first time that it happened? Or was it purpose driven! Just because a person said "it was natural" doesn't mean that it was.

I like the way these people said it!

Not having every answer doesn't mean Allah created people. Or Zeus. Or Yahweh. But evidence we do have. More is coming. Every year the gap is closing. Religious folks can disagree as much as they want. The truth isn't impacted by that.
There are over 10,000 children deaths every day from starvation. Every day. Suffering on these large scales shows there is no theism. Probabilities with illness rates playing out exactly as predicted show no deity is healing people.
Science denial in the name of a deity always ends up being wrong. Doing science with a result in mind is the worst way to find truth.
We don't know. We are starting to get a picture of early life. Self replicating chemicals, peptides, amino acids, have been demonstrated, DNA coming from simpler RNA has evidence.
RNA evolving also has evidence. More will be found.



Evidence for RNA origins




The RNA-world hypothesis proposes that today's DNA-based life forms evolved from earlier ones that were based on much simpler RNA molecules...

biochemist Michael Yarus marshals the theoretical considerations and lab experiments that lend support to this notion for the origin of life.



Chemists Stanley Miller and Harold Urey tested this at the University of Chicago in 1952 in their 'primordial soup experiments' that created amino acids from methane, ammonia, hydrogen and water when the mixture was exposed to an electrical discharge.


Other recent discoveries have revealed the existence of small RNAs, including microRNAs, that are intimately involved in controlling gene expression and translating messenger RNA. But the fact that RNA can adopt this vast catalogue of forms is insufficient evidence for a precursor RNA world.


More compelling is the ability of RNA to evolve under selection pressure, as demonstrated in the elegant SELEX experiments done in Larry Gold's lab at the University of Colorado, Boulder. This evolutionary adaptability may be why it is the nucleic acid of choice for the genome of some of the most difficult and changeable pathogens, such as the influenza viruses. It is a key part of the argument that it was RNA that generated subsequent life forms, and that RNAs were a primitive system for making short chains of amino acids — a system that evolved to produce the protein-based structural and metabolic machinery found in organisms today.


Further proof for the primitive RNA world could come from next-generation sequencing platforms that allow deep sampling of nucleic-acid populations from microorganisms in exotic locations, such as in deep-sea volcanic vents.



The Origins of the RNA World



There is now strong evidence indicating that an RNA World did indeed exist on the early Earth. The smoking gun is seen in the structure of the contemporary ribosome (Ban et al. 2000; Wimberly et al. 2000; Yusupov et al. 2001). The active site for peptide-bond formation lies deep within a central core of RNA, whereas proteins decorate the outside of this RNA core and insert narrow fingers into it. No amino acid side chain comes within 18 Å of the active site (Nissen et al. 2000). Clearly, the ribosome is a ribozyme (Steitz and Moore 2003), and it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, as suggested by Crick, “the primitive ribosome could have been made entirely of RNA” (1968).





Researchers may have taken the first step toward solving this mystery. They’ve shown that RNA molecules can grow short proteins called peptides all by themselves—no ribosome required. What’s more, this chemistry works under conditions likely present on early Earth.


“It’s an important advance,” says Claudia Bonfio, an origin of life chemist at the University of Strasbourg who was not involved in the work. The study, she says, provides scientists a new way of thinking about how peptides were built.





But to give rise to modern life, RNA would have had to somehow “learn” to make proteins, and eventually ribosomes.


Now, Carell’s team reports that a pair of noncanonical RNA bases can do just that. They started with pairs of RNA strands, each made up of strings of RNA bases linked together in a chain. These pairs of strands were complementary, enabling them to recognize and bind to each other. At one end of the first strand—called the “donor” strand—they included a noncanonical RNA base, called a t6A, which is able to bind an amino acid. On the end of the second RNA strand—called the “acceptor” strand—they added another noncanonical RNA base, called mnm5U.


Carell’s team found that when the complementary donor and acceptor RNA strands bound together, the mnm5U grabbed ahold of the amino acid on the t6A. With the addition of just a bit of heat, t6A let go and passed its amino acid over to mnm5U, and the complementary strands disassociated and drifted apart.


But the process could repeat. A second donor strand carrying another amino acid could then bind to the acceptor strand, and pass over its amino acid, which was linked to the first. The process could create peptide chains up to 15 amino acids long, the team reports today in Nature.


Now, Carell’s team reports that a pair of noncanonical RNA bases can do just that. They started with pairs of RNA strands, each made up of strings of RNA bases linked together in a chain. These pairs of strands were complementary, enabling them to recognize and bind to each other. At one end of the first strand—called the “donor” strand—they included a noncanonical RNA base, called a t6A, which is able to bind an amino acid. On the end of the second RNA strand—called the “acceptor” strand—they added another noncanonical RNA base, called mnm5U.


Carell’s team found that when the complementary donor and acceptor RNA strands bound together, the mnm5U grabbed ahold of the amino acid on the t6A. With the addition of just a bit of heat, t6A let go and passed its amino acid over to mnm5U, and the complementary strands disassociated and drifted apart.


But the process could repeat. A second donor strand carrying another amino acid could then bind to the acceptor strand, and pass over its amino acid, which was linked to the first. The process could create peptide chains up to 15 amino acids long, the team reports today in Nature.




The design of self-replicating helical peptides​

Abstract​

The self-assembly of helical peptides and information transfer through autocatalysis and cross-catalysis are the foundation of peptide-based molecular evolution models. Many fundamental properties of living systems, such as environmental sensitivity, chiroselectivity, cross-catalysis, dynamic error correction and conditional selection, are exhibited by various self-replicating peptide systems. Recently, advances have been made in the design of peptide systems with autocatalytic and cross-catalytic properties.
 
Top