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There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I challenge you to quote a single scholar (atheist or not) that makes such an stupid argument.
So tell me, what is the source of the books you cited?
Next question: How is it that you think you're not using the Bible to prove the Bible?


Well , how can someone demonstrate “magic” if you have a bias against magic?
I have no idea. You're the one claiming that magic things occur. What convinced you that magic things that defy the laws of physics actually occur? I hope it's more than you've presented here.
Perhaps there is evidence for magic, but since you have a bias, you will never know.
I would if someone presented it to me. You've yet to do that. I'll believe anything, given sufficient evidence.
Okay, so magicians aren't doing magic but the ancient peoples in the Bible were doing magic? How did you determine this?
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
How do you explain the fact that your "flood"
is disproved 10,000 times over?
are we talking about the biblical flood or historicity of Jesus Christ here? It seems you have changed topics...your claim btw does not answer an entire cultures history. You cannot make the claim that the entire history of the Jewish race of people is fabricated. So when we trace their lineage, its going to be difficult to discredit the founding fathers of that nation that are also specifically illustrated in the Bible (eg prophets, kings, patrairchs, foreign rulers, invasions etc). If one has to accept that these figures really existed based on cultural history, then its going to be very difficult to weed out Jesus Christ from those same accounts...the consistency of evidence in support of his inclusion in the narrative is far too problematic for the naysayers.

The problem is, the apostles who wrote extensively about Christ are themselves individuals who it is universally accepted, really existed. How can you then discredit the writings of first hand accounts from a variety of individuals who lived alongside Christ and whom it is accepted really existed? (its not just one apostle). Its stupid to say, oh but these individuals are not secular so they are of no historical value...that is as absurd as saying anyone on these forums who is not an atheist and/or writes in support of Christianity isnt credible and is not actually real.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
are we talking about the biblical flood or historicity of Jesus Christ here? It seems you have changed topics...your claim btw does not answer an entire cultures history. You cannot make the claim that the entire history of the Jewish race of people is fabricated. So when we trace their lineage, its going to be difficult to discredit the founding fathers of that nation that are also specifically illustrated in the Bible (eg prophets, kings, patrairchs, foreign rulers, invasions etc). If one has to accept that these figures really existed based on cultural history, then its going to be very difficult to weed out Jesus Christ from those same accounts...the consistency of evidence in support of his inclusion in the narrative is far too problematic for the naysayers.

The problem is, the apostles who wrote extensively about Christ are themselves individuals who it is universally accepted, really existed. How can you then discredit the writings of first hand accounts from a variety of individuals who lived alongside Christ and whom it is accepted really existed? (its not just one apostle). Its stupid to say, oh but these individuals are not secular so they are of no historical value...that is as absurd as saying anyone on these forums who is not an atheist and/or writes in support of Christianity isnt credible and is not actually real.
What was it you said, "how do you explain
archaeological evidence that supports Bible
narrative...."?

So I ask how you explain science that negates
certain narratives.

YOU here change the topic going off on
all manner of things I didn't in any way hint at.

Do you care to answer, or not?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is a very interesting conspiracy theory, but that doesn’t change the fact that:

1 Paul and Mark are indepdent form each other

2 you accept as a probable fact “natural” historical events that are reported in 2 independent sources

3 you make arbitrary exceptions and change that standard with events that contradict your philosophical world view.



As a side note, none of this books where burned, they are widely available for anyone to read and study. …….. so if any of this books contradicts Paul, you are free to build your case, and explain why is this other source correct and Paul is wrong.
You are still wrong Books that disagreed with what was the official version of Christianity were dropped. When you put sources through a filter and eliminate 90% of the gospels for example, you lose the ability to say the ten percent left are "independent".

Sorry, but the Romans of the Fourth Century limited the sources that you can go to. That makes them all "one source".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I challenge you to quote a single scholar (atheist or not) that makes such an stupid argument.
LOL! You missed the point. She did not say scholars did you. She accused you of using what you called "an<sic> stupid argument".
Well , how can someone demonstrate “magic” if you have a bias against magic?

Perhaps there is evidence for magic, but since you have a bias, you will never know.
It is up to those that claim magic exists to demonstrate that it does. Don't you understand this? You are trying to shift the burden of proof again.
Then why do you believe the magic stories in the Bible?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
are we talking about the biblical flood or historicity of Jesus Christ here? It seems you have changed topics...your claim btw does not answer an entire cultures history. You cannot make the claim that the entire history of the Jewish race of people is fabricated. So when we trace their lineage, its going to be difficult to discredit the founding fathers of that nation that are also specifically illustrated in the Bible (eg prophets, kings, patrairchs, foreign rulers, invasions etc). If one has to accept that these figures really existed based on cultural history, then its going to be very difficult to weed out Jesus Christ from those same accounts...the consistency of evidence in support of his inclusion in the narrative is far too problematic for the naysayers.

The problem is, the apostles who wrote extensively about Christ are themselves individuals who it is universally accepted, really existed. How can you then discredit the writings of first hand accounts from a variety of individuals who lived alongside Christ and whom it is accepted really existed? (its not just one apostle). Its stupid to say, oh but these individuals are not secular so they are of no historical value...that is as absurd as saying anyone on these forums who is not an atheist and/or writes in support of Christianity isnt credible and is not actually real.
Some Christians try to make the claim that Jesus supports the Flood myth. That is not necessarily true. One can be a Christian and not believe the myths of Genesis. Those same Christians will often try to claim that the entire Bible is inerrant. An easily falsifiable argument.
 
In 1AD a lifetime was 38 years. So in 110 some people can say "do you remember Jesus 80 years ago?

Anyone living in Jesus's time was dead. Now we have 1/2 Gnostics who believe he was only a spirit, or some such bizarre Eastern version.
Who knows what the 40 gospels claimed?
In 318 AD we have a unified canon. How many people remember the Jesus days at this point?

You don't seem to understand averages very well either.

If the average lifespan was 38 years but there was very high child mortality, the average 30 year old would probably expect to live to 55+ with quite a few people living much longer.

Paul was writing 20 years after Jesus' purported death, 'Mark' 40 or so years later likely borrowing from earlier oral (and perhaps written) traditions.

Many people's lives would overlap these dates.

Why do you keep saying "real time"? Jesus supposedly died in 30 AD. 20 years later Paul knows of no crucifixion, no family, no ministry, no disciples, no followers, fishermen, no sermons, nothing

Near contemporary sources are generally considered pretty good in historiography.

The general consensus is that Paul mentioned family and that the Gospels were a couple of decades after that based on earlier traditions.

I'm not sure why that matters?

You are not sure why the fact that only deified humans who lived human lives were written about close to real time matters?

You don't understand why deified humans tend to be written about in close to real time yet purely mythical beings tend to be placed further back in history?


I'm going by Plutarch. There were local stories about Romulus immediately after his death.

Plutarch was writing nearly a millennium after Romulus supposedly lived and all of a sudden should be uncritically accepted as accurate?

There are no sources about Romulus for many centuries after his purported death.

There is no evidence or reason to believe a cult of Romulus existed anywhere near to 750BC.

In 750 BC there was a settlement at Rome. There would have been some kind of chieftain at that time, let's call him Brutus.

If you were born in proto-Rome in 750 BC and knew that proto-Rome existed before that and was ruled by Brutus, why on earth do you think someone could persuade you that, in fact, the greta King Romulus had actually founded the city before living a heroic life that overlapped with your own?

A deified human Romulus could theoretically appear in this timescale, but it is highly implausible for a whole cloth fabrication Romulus god.

On the other hand, an origin myth like that can easily appear over time many centuries later once the city has become bigger and more important.

Is that really beyond your comprehension?

Romulus dies and a cult following began. He was associated with a common Roman God. But his story is one of a human, leading wars, organizing cities and so on.
What does a life time have to do with this?

Because you can't name a single whole cloth fabrication that emerged in a similar timescale to Jesus, yet it's very easy to name many deified humans who emerged in that timescale.

For some reason the only probabilities that matter are those that support your preconceived notions.

Do you know the time frame of the mystery religions and all other savior demigods?
The main religions, influenced by Hellenism, syncretically mixed with their own local customs -

Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic


Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic


Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic

Yes, standard ill defined mythic time. Nothing at all like Jesus' human life noted in near contemporary sources.

Also Mithraism wasn't from Hellenised Persians, it was Roman with some superficial Eastern traits to give it a veneer of antiquity as Romans hated innovative superstitions.

These various interpretations were called heresies by the leaders of the proto-orthodox church, but many were very popular and had large followings.

Yet despite all these endless heresies, none of them relate to the real religion based around the space Jesus Paul is supposedly writing about?

Again, what are the odds of that?

What odds should we give the fact that no other mythical god appeared in near real time, and that none of the hundreds of heresies was about the space Jesus, and none of the religion's critics remembered the space Jesus cult.

You haven't demonstrated any made up anything. 3 to 1 is based on available evidence. Your point here has fallen flat dead.

Are you saying that this number represents anything other than his own personally assigned, highly subjective probability based on his own personal understanding of the evidence he personally selected to make the mythicist case he had solicited mostly from fellow mythicists?

You do accept that it is his opinion with an attempt to show his reasoning and why he thinks as he does, don't you? And that, assuming everyone involved is as perfectly fair and as rational as humans can be, you would expect if 100 other people looked at the same evidence and assigned their own probabilities we would see significant differences between them? And that any actual biases would be expected to skew these numbers even more?

Regardless of whether you find his arguments persuasive, do you accept that this is a correct summation? If not, what do you think?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
If the average lifespan was 38 years but there was very high child mortality, the average 30 year old would probably expect to live to 55+ with quite a few people living much longer.
This is something I wish everyone would understand. The average life span for those who survive child hood is much higher.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Genesis was most likely written in 6BC, after the exile where the Israelite Kings were exposed to different Mesopotamian customs and stories.
It uses very similar plot lines as several older creation and flood narratives and in modern academia through intertextuality it can be demonstrated Genesis relied on several older myths and is a reaction to those stories.

So these authors were writing completely average stories, unoriginal and their God Yahweh was a very typical Near Eastern deity, very similar to the Gods going back thousands of years in that region.
I can source some OT Hebrew experts explaining the older Mesopotamian cultures had Gods very similar to Yahweh, so nothing original or exceptional there.
The 10 commandments were just pulled from the much longer Babylonain The Code of Hammurabi which was also given to people from a deity written on stone.

The entire thing is very mundane. You cannot demonstrate that any deity commanded them to write this or they had any contact with any God. But it can be demonstrated these people were using religious syncretism which is used in 100% of all religions. This is just more of the same






Journal Paper, Cultural Borrowings and Ethnic Appropriations in Antiquity.

Genesis 1-11 and Its Mesopotamian Problem


"At the same time, the knowledge that many biblical texts have a family relationship to Mesopotamian and other Near Eastern texts has reconfigured the categories of thought in modern scholarship, such that it is increasingly untenable to have a patronizing or Orientalist view of the various religions and cultures of the ancient Near East. The result is a quandary, in which this cluster of issues continues to be an uneasy presence.
In ancient Israel, the issue of Mesopotamian cultural priority was viewed dif- ferently. Ancient Israel knew that it was a relative latecomer in the ancient Near East, and that Mesopotamian civilization was far older and more glorious."

Here they explain the Hebrew authors appropriated, mimic and invert Mesopotamian myths. They also attempt to diminish them by writing superior myths.
"The Hebrew Bible acknowledges that Israel was a relative latecomer in the ancient Near East. The first era of human civilization was in the ancient east, in and around Mesopotamia. According to Israel's collective memory, the human ascent from nature to culture had to go through Mesopotamia. This temporal priority ought to have given Mesopotamia the glory of cultural origins. For latecomer Israel to be exalted, the temporal priority of Mesopotamia had to be depreciated. In Genesis 1-1 1 this Mesopotamian problem is addressed by various strategies, including appropriation, mimicry, and inversion, whereby Mesopota- mia's priority is acknowledged but diminished, clearing the path for the ascent of Abraham and his descendants. "


"

The situation of ancient Israel in relation to Mesopotamian culture was both similar to and distinct from such modern colonial situations. For much of its history, including the time when the major biblical texts were composed, Israel lived under the indirect or direct authority of powerful Mesopotamian empires - first the Assyrian Empire (esp. 8th-7th centuries B.C.E.), then the Neo-Babylo- nian (7th-6th centuries B.C.E.) - and suffered massive destructions when the kings of Israel or Judah chose to rebel. For the most part, as far as we can tell, imperial authority over vassal states was relatively benign as long as the vassal state paid taxes and tribute and maintained poltical loyalty to the Mesopotamian king.8



The biblical flood story (of which two versions, from the J and P sources, are edited together in Genesis 6-9)e appears to be an appropriation ofthe first type, in which the originally foreign character of the story has been effaced.

It is likely that the P writer (or the tradition on which he drew) appropriated the Mesopotamian concept of the king as the "image" of god and revised it for a new purpose.


The J stories seem also to revise the Mesopotamian tradition of the mythic ascent from nature to culture in primeval times. In Mesopotamian literature, the first human is a lullfi-amElu, "primitive human," living a natural life, who only becomes fully human when he learns the arts of human culture and comes to dwell in the city.18 The fullest example, though displaced from primeval to historical times, is the transformation of Enkidu in the first tablet of the Gil- gamesh epic. Enkidu is created as a lullft-amElu, "primitive human," then is initiated into human sexuality and the cultural arts of clothing and cuisine by a prostitute, and completes his ascent to full humanity when he enters the city of Uruk, where he meets his royal counterpart, Gilgamesh. Later, on his deathbed, Enkidu comes to see that the prostitute gave him the greatest boon - civilized life. As the god Shamash counsels, Enkidu owes her a blessing:



In the J primeval narrative, the movement of humans from the Garden of Eden to the Tower of Babel is strikingly similar to the movement of "primitive humans" in Mesopotamian tradition from their initial innocent existence among the animals to civilized life in the city. Both transformations are accompanied by new knowledge, including sex, clothing, human food, and (ultimately) con- sciousness of mortality. In both traditions, the transformation brings humans to a higher state of knowledge, and they become, to some extent, "like gods."
The Tower of Babel story appropriates and inverts the Mesopotamian ideology of the ziggurat (temple-tower). The ziggurat was the most visible part of the Meso- potamian temple complex and served as a cosmic axis, linking heaven and earth.

In Babylonian tradition the temple-tower of Babel was a cosmic and holy place, built by the gods, where Marduk's presence was manifested on earth.


The biblical story clearly appropriates the Mesopotamian tradition and ideol- ogy of the temple-tower of Babylon, but reverses its meaning by placing the plan to "build a city and a tower with its top in heaven" (Gen 11:4) in the mouths of humans, and coloring this desire as an act of hubris and rebellion.
I have no clue or idea where your going.
I ask a simple question.
Who were those men that wrote the scriptures..
Where did they come from.

And from there your all over place and not one word about who those man are, that wrote the scriptures.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Covering your ears and repeating a logical fallacy doesn't make your claims any truer.
That's because you have no clue or idea anything about the historical evidence about Jesus Christ walking the earth a little over
2000 years ago.
I know it goes straight over your head...that's because you have no knowledge where to look for the historical evidence.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Your claim was that they destroyed “all temples from all pagan religions”.

Can you work out why your claim is flat earth wrong yet? If not go back and read more carefully with an open mind and you’ll be able to enlighten yourself.

To support your vapid claim, you showed some temples were repurposed.

My claim, supported with multiple peer reviewed sources, was that you were talking nonsense about all temples as it was merely some being replaced, and mostly not destroyed but repurposed like modern churches are being because they are no longer financially viable.

You can lead a horse to water…

This is a ridiculous attempt to completely change the focus of the discussion. Obviously my statement is somewhat hyperbole but the point remains. In the 4th century Rome Christianity took over Pagan temples and enacted all sorts of anti-pagan laws.
Eventually Pagan temples were outlawed, making my statement completely correct. Moving in with a new religion is still "destroying a temple".

"In 472 Leo I published a new law in 472 which imposed severe penalties for the owner of any property who was aware that pagan rites were performed on his property. If the property owner was of high rank he was punished by the loss of his rank or office and by the confiscation of his property. If the property owner was of lower status he would be physically tortured and then condemned to labor in the mines for the rest of his life."



Journal paper by Professor Dr. Jitse H.F. Dijkstra
Classics and Religious Studies,

" The archaeological evidence that has now been collected for most parts of the Roman Empire, however, shows overwhelmingly that the destruction of temples and their reuse as churches were exceptional rather than routine events, and merely two aspects of the changing sacred landscape in late antiquity."

" am currently working on a project that will build on these recent trends by conducting the first book-length study of religious violence in late antique Egypt.12 Thus far the idea that violence, in particular against temples and statues, was widespread in late antique Egypt has been persistent.13 To quote the much-discussed study Religion in Roman Egypt by David Frankfurter: “the gutting and conversion of traditional Egyptian temples, often still functioning, was a widespread phenomenon in Egypt during the fourth, fifth and sixth centuries.”14 My regional study of the process of religious transformation from the Ancient Egyptian religion to Christianity in the First Cataract region in southern Egypt, which exhaustively studies all sources from Philae and the two other towns in the region, Aswan and Elephantine, is a strong counter-argument against such views. It argues that the religious transformation in the whole region, including Philae, consisted of a gradual and complex process that was essentially peaceful.15 The present project extends the picture of a complex and gradual process of religious transformation, in which religious violence only occasionally occurred in specific local or regional circumstances, to Egypt as a whole."


Oh look, my words, destroy temples ........."These barbarians retained the temples on Philae right down to my day, but the Emperor Justinian decided to destroy them. Accordingly, Narses, . . . destroyed the temples on the emperor’s orders, held the priests under guard, and sent the statues to Byzantium."

"We have discussed three cases that have been taken as exemplary for widespread religious violence in late antique Egypt or even for the pervasive nature of religious violence in the late antique world. Each of these three cases is well documented in Christian literature, and even secular literature (Eunapius, Procopius), which describes the violence in dramatic terms as a direct consequence of Christian – “pagan” conflict, thus seemingly confirming the picture that the fourth and fifth centuries saw a struggle between the old and the new religion, leading to Christian triumph."


I don't even understand the point of this new line of discussion?


Never understood posters who pretend not to be able to see multiple quotes from multiple scholarly sources within posts.
Exactly, all of my prior posts with sources are ignored.

Very strange form of cognitive dissonance.

Yes, to think Christianity didn't actively attempt to end all pagan religions in Rome is strange?w
Doesn’t remotely support your claim if all temples of all pagan religions. Try reading more carefully next time.
Naw, Christianity didn't want to erase pagan religions? No way?
"
In 527, Emperor Justinian I banned all Pagans from the right to hold public office and order the confiscation of their property.[48]

According to the sixth-century historian Procopius, the Isis temple of Philae in Byzantine Egypte was closed down officially in AD 537 by the local commander Narses the Persarmenian in accordance with an order of Byzantine emperor Justinian I.[49] This event is conventionally considered to mark the end of ancient Egyptian religion.["






Well you said the following " It's about the Roman Catholic church who went back and destroyed all temples from all pagan religions and also destroyed all material not in line with their canon."
Persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire began during the reign of Constantine the Great (r. 306–337) in the military colony of Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem), when he destroyed a pagan temple for the purpose of constructing a Christian church.[1] Rome had periodically confiscated church properties, and Constantine was vigorous in reclaiming them whenever these issues were brought to his attention.[2] Christian historians alleged that Hadrian (2nd century) had constructed a temple to Aphrodite on the site of the crucifixion of Jesus on Golgotha hill in order to suppress Christian veneration there. Constantine used that to justify the temple's destruction, saying he was simply reclaiming the property.[3][4][5][6] Using the vocabulary of reclamation, Constantine acquired several more sites of Christian significance in the Holy Land.[3]



Are you now accepting you were talking nonsense?
Right, Christians loved pagans, they were one big happy family.



I was trying to help you become slightly better informed of the impossibility of systematic destruction of texts in the ancient era.
There is a known blackout period in early Christianity. We have no information from detractors, many missing Epistles, all other Gospels are gone, 1st official canon is forever gone.
There are also many forged documents.





Localised, temporary and ad hoc destruction of texts occurred, but if you don't understand why long-term, systematic and empire wide destruction was impossible, then go back and read the quote.



We have lost almost all ancient texts of any genre, including orthodox Christianity (as in works of theology). Preserving any text was massively time consuming, very expensive and also relied on a fair bit of luck.

Is there any reason to believe that non-canonical tracts should have been preserved at a massively greater rate than the average texts of that era?

What is the evidence that the Church was systematically destroying them? When do you think this was happening? What were the logistics of it?
The church fathers created an entire set of Epistles.

The remaining four contested epistles – Ephesians, as well as the three known as the Pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus) – have been labeled pseudepigraphical works by most critical scholars.

There are two examples of pseudonymous letters written in Paul's name apart from the New Testament epistles, the Epistle to the Laodiceans and 3 Corinthians.

The Epistle to the Hebrews is actually anonymous, but it has been traditionally attributed to Paul.[7] The church father Origen of Alexandria rejected the Pauline authorship of Hebrews, instead asserting that, although the ideas expressed in the letter were genuinely Pauline, the letter itself had actually been written by someone else.[8] Most modern scholars generally agree that Hebrews was not written by the apostle Paul. Various other possible authorships have been suggested.[9


 

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joelr

Well-Known Member
Was mainly about Arianism and had nothing to do with reconciling Gospels or 4 major churches having their own Gospels etc.

More rank nonsense you've uncritically accepted.
Whoops, you need to back up a bit.
First, you said I was into " Da Vinci Code" conspiracy theories. However you were wrong. Completely wrong.
The first council was what I said, about the Creed. They did argue Ariansim as well but you really had to backtrack here.

I didn't say the council was about choosing the 4 gospels. This we don't know. However educated scholars believe the 4 were chosen for political reasons.



59:30
Dr Carrier
"there are tons of other Gospels, 40 Gospels were written at the time, we don't have most of them....so the question is why these 4 were brought together.
I suspect it was political, at the Council of Nicaea, in the formation of the Creed they did the same thing where you start with the assumption of who's in and who's out, you look at the creeds of who's in and who's out and then you merge them together to include the creeds of those who are in. You end up with this Frankenstien's monster, illogical, irrational creed, that makes no sense and was no ones creed but was new and designed to include the people who are politically accepable. It's contradictory and they tried to make it work.
The Gospels may have worked the same way, the 4 most popular political communities."...continues explanation.


I didn't say I accepted it I said it's a reasonable theory, based on a PhD historian who has been studying the period and completed a 700pg monograph.

But since you consider it "rank nonsense" please use your PhD applied to early Christianity and explain why you think that/
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
What is?

I read the entire thing. And responded.

I could ask the same of you, given that I've already responded to everything you've typed in this post.

You've already said this, and I've already addressed it. Why do you think just repeating the exact same thing over and over is going to get you somewhere?

You don't appear to know the first thing about human nature.
This is just repetition of the exact same thing. Again.

Not if you come saying there's no historical evidence for Jesus Christ.
So your called into question by your own question.
You first have to provide the evidence to back up what your saying first.
Without any evidence of your own.
To back your saying.
Your question is pointless, invalid,
Void of emptiness..
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Well, Paul was from Tarsus in Asia Minor. I believe Mark and Matthew may have been from Jerusalem, and so forth.

You think scientists are just average men like all other then? If you think Paul was special, do you not think Einstein and Newton were special too?

You imagine that people like Einstein were not gifted? Think of what we have been able to learn from these special scientists? The very life you live on a daily basis is full of the blessings these special humans have bestowed upon you. Why do you neglect to appreciate them?

Where do all humans come from, and where to their special gifts come from? Maybe the same place those special men you appreciate came from as well?

BTW, regarding "not being there" and knowing what happened, is that really an issue for you? Don't detectives analyze crime scenes and put together the evidence that shows what happened all the time, without them having been on the scene during the crime? Why is it you allow for that, but you don't allow for trained scientists to know how to read the scenes of the natural world and piece together what happened?

That's not a consistent expectation that they can't know if they weren't there. It's not a good argument at all.

I'll be waiting for your answer.
Who were those men that wrote the old testament scriptures..
Where did they come from and by who chosen them..
When did this all take place.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The conversation was related to the resurrection.


The point that I made is that you dont need to grant a 6 day crearion or even that christianity is true in order to accept the resurection of Jesus as a historical fact.
Explain what does the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
have to do with the historical evidence about Jesus Christ walk the earth a little over 2000
As I didn't make any mention about Genesis 6 day creation nor did I make any mention of the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What evidence can you give outside of the bible of the historical evidence of Jesus Christ walking the earth a little over 2000 years ago.
What evidence can you give inside the Bible to support the historical evidence of Jesus Christ walking the earth a little over 2000 years ago.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You don't seem to understand averages very well either.

If the average lifespan was 38 years but there was very high child mortality, the average 30 year old would probably expect to live to 55+ with quite a few people living much longer.

Paul was writing 20 years after Jesus' purported death, 'Mark' 40 or so years later likely borrowing from earlier oral (and perhaps written) traditions.

Many people's lives would overlap these dates.



Near contemporary sources are generally considered pretty good in historiography.

The general consensus is that Paul mentioned family and that the Gospels were a couple of decades after that based on earlier traditions.



You are not sure why the fact that only deified humans who lived human lives were written about close to real time matters?

You don't understand why deified humans tend to be written about in close to real time yet purely mythical beings tend to be placed further back in history?




Plutarch was writing nearly a millennium after Romulus supposedly lived and all of a sudden should be uncritically accepted as accurate?

There are no sources about Romulus for many centuries after his purported death.

There is no evidence or reason to believe a cult of Romulus existed anywhere near to 750BC.

In 750 BC there was a settlement at Rome. There would have been some kind of chieftain at that time, let's call him Brutus.

If you were born in proto-Rome in 750 BC and knew that proto-Rome existed before that and was ruled by Brutus, why on earth do you think someone could persuade you that, in fact, the greta King Romulus had actually founded the city before living a heroic life that overlapped with your own?

A deified human Romulus could theoretically appear in this timescale, but it is highly implausible for a whole cloth fabrication Romulus god.

On the other hand, an origin myth like that can easily appear over time many centuries later once the city has become bigger and more important.

Is that really beyond your comprehension?



Because you can't name a single whole cloth fabrication that emerged in a similar timescale to Jesus, yet it's very easy to name many deified humans who emerged in that timescale.

For some reason the only probabilities that matter are those that support your preconceived notions.



Yes, standard ill defined mythic time. Nothing at all like Jesus' human life noted in near contemporary sources.

Also Mithraism wasn't from Hellenised Persians, it was Roman with some superficial Eastern traits to give it a veneer of antiquity as Romans hated innovative superstitions.



Yet despite all these endless heresies, none of them relate to the real religion based around the space Jesus Paul is supposedly writing about?

Again, what are the odds of that?

What odds should we give the fact that no other mythical god appeared in near real time, and that none of the hundreds of heresies was about the space Jesus, and none of the religion's critics remembered the space Jesus cult.



Are you saying that this number represents anything other than his own personally assigned, highly subjective probability based on his own personal understanding of the evidence he personally selected to make the mythicist case he had solicited mostly from fellow mythicists?

You do accept that it is his opinion with an attempt to show his reasoning and why he thinks as he does, don't you? And that, assuming everyone involved is as perfectly fair and as rational as humans can be, you would expect if 100 other people looked at the same evidence and assigned their own probabilities we would see significant differences between them? And that any actual biases would be expected to skew these numbers even more?

Regardless of whether you find his arguments persuasive, do you accept that this is a correct summation? If not, what do you think?
Paul's snake story doesn't strike you as
a " whole cloth fabrication"?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Much of the Bible is completely mythical, I just think the Jesus stuff is better explained as a human who got mythicised after his death rather than a purely imaginary being invented by some unknown person and who later folks came to believe was real.
Well, THAT would be an extreme and withal
rather silly idea.
 
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