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There is no Sin...

Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Outside of religion.

If sin is breaking or disobeying God's rules. Then it depends on what God you follow as different Gods have different rules for their followers. Whereas one action maybe a sin for the follower of one God. It may not be a sin for one who follows a different God.

One cannot "sin" if the action is not breaking the rules of the God they follow.

So to be sinless, free of sin, one must simply not follow any God.
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I think you've got this wrong.

God is known through the heart of man, by faith, whilst the law (religion) is intended to make clear to the disobedient what is right and wrong.

In Romans 1:18-21 Paul writes, 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'

So, to deny sin is, in effect, to deny truth. Truth exists whether or not we deny its existence. It is not a matter of personal opinion.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Redemptionsong said:
I think you've got this wrong.

God is known through the heart of man, by faith, whilst the law (religion) is intended to make clear to the disobedient what is right and wrong.

In Romans 1:18-21 Paul writes, 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'

So, to deny sin is, in effect, to deny truth. Truth exists whether or not we deny its existence. It is not a matter of personal opinion.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't do your "we" or your "truth". I have a different faith and a different God than you.
 
Elihoenai

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Outside of religion.

If sin is breaking or disobeying God's rules. Then it depends on what God you follow as different Gods have different rules for their followers. Whereas one action maybe a sin for the follower of one God. It may not be a sin for one who follows a different God.

One cannot "sin" if the action is not breaking the rules of the God they follow.

So to be sinless, free of sin, one must simply not follow any God.
Click to expand...

Every person on the planet of 7.9 Billion people except a Few Elect hundred/thousand Practice Left-Hand Path Religion. Some of these persons recognise Sin while others are, apparently, Free from the notion of Sin, yet they are walking the Same Path.

Every Society on the planet recognises Sin. It's a Sin to drive through a red light and you get punished for doing so with a Fine. It's a Sin to Murder and you get punished for doing with the death penalty in some States in the United States. Societies cannot function without Moral Boundaries. Having said that, there are a Few Elites that take pleasure in breaking every Moral Boundary and it appears they receive no punishment for doing so.
 
spiritual5142

spiritual5142

Member
Hermit Philosopher said:
Except that if you are of faith, [physical] survival is not the most important thing for Man. And, if you are unlucky enough to have [had to] truly “sin”, you will know why.

Some actions are so hard to live with, you will find yourself wishing that you had died instead. Then, you will know the meaning of having created your own “living hell”.

Humbly
Hermit
Click to expand...

I don't just mean physical survival. Our enemies may try to take everything from us. Our belief in ourselves, our love for life etc, they may try to break us and destroy our soul too and there won't be any gods to protect us. Also predatoriness isn't just to physically and spiritually survive. It is a higher form of being. Smartest and most beautiful creatures in nature are predators. Our predatory nature doesn't just make us survive it makes us reach our true potential and makes us free.

We are domesticated by our masters. Among many things they use religion, fear of god etc. Our past masters were kings, church etc I think now it is rich people and big corps. They may change but there are always masters manupilating us. They use fear of hell etc to break our spirit and domesticate us. Our masters don't want us to discover our predatory nature and reach our true potential because then we are not that easy to manupilate.

So predatoriness isn't just for survival, it is to evolve beyond ourselves.

As Nietzche puts it :

“What is good? - All that heightens the feelings of power, the will to power, power itself in man. What is bad? - All that proceeds from weakness. What is happiness? - The feeling that power increases - that a resistance is overcome.”
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Outside of religion.

If sin is breaking or disobeying God's rules. Then it depends on what God you follow as different Gods have different rules for their followers. Whereas one action maybe a sin for the follower of one God. It may not be a sin for one who follows a different God.

One cannot "sin" if the action is not breaking the rules of the God they follow.

So to be sinless, free of sin, one must simply not follow any God.
Click to expand...

No, if sin is disobedience, and you disobey, then you have sin regardless of what you keep as your god. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but disobeying is disobeying, even if you don't accept the God.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Mark Charles Compton said:
I see. Yes, agreed.

My point was that municipal laws could possibly (at least to a degree) fulfill the role which dogmatic laws represent.
The laws passed by political officials are derived outside of personal self and, at least some of them, are worthy of upholding and/or revering.
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Yes, I'm sure. Probably, more often than not, if it is worthy of upholding and/or revering it would also follow the line of "Love your neighbor as yourself".

IMV, there is a driving force which I will call "God" that instills :His law of love in people and so, thought they may not recognize God, God will still work in and through those same people.

Just a thought.

Mark Charles Compton said:
I was operating under the assumption there was a separation of the church and state, thus affording a second option of guidelines or framework which are outside of both the self/ego as well as any specific religious dogma. In a perfect world, these civil guidelines would be equivalently worthy of reverence or aspiration as any theistic approach. In a scenario where there is no separation of church and state, the atheist will be accused 'heretic' and may find themselves in danger or hard-pressed to survive without having to committing the epitome of 'sins'.
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I agree totally with your statement: "the atheist will be accused 'heretic' and may find themselves in danger or hard-pressed to survive without having to committing the epitome of 'sins'."

Men have a tendency to create "religion" out of a principle violating the principle itself. I don't subscribe to the modern interpretation of "separation of church and state" - but you have a valid point that there is a danger in theocracies.

But I love the principle that Jesus promoted, that being:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

The points I love about this statement are:

  1. He didn't say "I will force you to come and drink" - so the atheist is free not to drink
  2. He didn't say "If you are thirsty you have to come to me". If you are thirsty it doesn't translate into "you must drink what I drink"
  3. Free will - no pressure. You do the coming because you want his drink - love expressed.
 
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Hermit Philosopher

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
spiritual5142 said:
I don't just mean physical survival. Our enemies may try to take everything from us. Our belief in ourselves, our love for life etc, they may try to break us and destroy our soul too and there won't be any gods to protect us. Also predatoriness isn't just to physically and spiritually survive. It is a higher form of being. Smartest and most beautiful creatures in nature are predators. Our predatory nature doesn't just make us survive it makes us reach our true potential and makes us free.

We are domesticated by our masters. Among many things they use religion, fear of god etc. Our past masters were kings, church etc I think now it is rich people and big corps. They may change but there are always masters manupilating us. They use fear of hell etc to break our spirit and domesticate us. Our masters don't want us to discover our predatory nature and reach our true potential because then we are not that easy to manupilate.

So predatoriness isn't just for survival, it is to evolve beyond ourselves.

As Nietzche puts it :

“What is good? - All that heightens the feelings of power, the will to power, power itself in man. What is bad? - All that proceeds from weakness. What is happiness? - The feeling that power increases - that a resistance is overcome.”
Click to expand...

Dear spiritual5142,

Nihilism makes some relevant points and I do understand where you’re coming from with your comment; human psychology does impact greatly on our interactions and thereby, on survival and worldliness as a whole.

But simply because nature (and societies) run on power (or on persuasion, rather, if one’s more on the amicable side of things), does not mean that the use of it - even the “successful” use of it - leads to any real form of “happiness”.

I’d say for example that a person who has sought power and acquired it, may feel less threatened (though often not, actually), but that is not “happiness”.

A “happy” individual has no need to assert power; only a defensive, threatened one does.

Humbly,
Hermit
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Outside of religion.

If sin is breaking or disobeying God's rules. Then it depends on what God you follow as different Gods have different rules for their followers. Whereas one action maybe a sin for the follower of one God. It may not be a sin for one who follows a different God.

One cannot "sin" if the action is not breaking the rules of the God they follow.

So to be sinless, free of sin, one must simply not follow any God.
Click to expand...
Ultimately disloyalty to deity is sin weather we believe it or not. Ignorance of the law will not be a valid defense. Like disbelieving in taxes.
 
spiritual5142

spiritual5142

Member
Secret Chief said:
OK thanks. From my perspective, I endeavour not to be cruel, but don't feel like a victim in any way. I try not to diregard others and don't seek to gain power, whatever that word may mean. I'm not money oriented and don't expect or seek future enemies. Apart from that, we're like two peas in a pod. :)
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I myself don't seek enemies neither but just because you don't seek them doesn't mean they won't find you :D
 
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