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"Think of the wives!"

Alceste

Vagabond
I've just gotten back into doing work that pays well. Film stuff, bla bla. But I'm doing a specific kind of work where EVERYBODY ELSE that works with me is a guy. Not the first time - the last time I was banned from working by the union and the only "reason" I ever got was "some of the guys are saying you're a tease".

Long story short, I was really traumatized by that and didn't try again until now, when it's busy and I'm broke. So I'm working again, but I'm still the only woman in the crew.

Being older and wiser, I'm probing people a bit here and there as to their personal attitudes about gender and work. I've gotten three interesting perspectives.

1: Some men can't accept being told what to do by a woman.

This came from a guy I worked with last night. I was casually wondering whether there are other women in this province doing this type of work. He said yes, there are a couple, but they are exceptional at their jobs, because they have to be. If you're not a woman, just having a penis is enough of a qualification. If you don't have a penis, you have to bust your ***. The awkward thing is, though, when you bust your *** you get promoted really fast in this industry, and men FREAK OUT when you get into a position where you're supposed to tell them what to do. They hate it, and they will do whatever they can to rip you to shreds. That was enlightening, because it made sense of why I got banned from working by the union in the same week I got offered positions of authority by three different department heads in the same film.

2. Screw gender - the department heads just want people who can work and manage a crew, and men are better workers with women on the crew.

This guy assured me that department heads want someone who knows what they're doing, and can work hard, and gender doesn't matter, and bla bla bla. He didn't hear my back story or concerns, because he talked over me every time I opened my mouth. (Ironically, he didn't do that to men). He's right - on every job, there are noobs who know nothing, can't figure it out and won't ask, cynical, entitled pros who just want their hours and are happy to stand on the sidelines watching the clock, and people who work. Every key in the industry wants to hire the people who work. HOWEVER, the cynical pros who watch the clock are the most likely people who decide whether or not you get to work, because they are more involved with union politics. Anyway, this dude didn't get that, because he doesn't have to, because he has a penis and can do whatever the **** he wants and still work.

3. Think of the wives!

The woman who said this is a friend of mine who used to work in the same industry but is now staying at home with a kid while her husband works. He works in the same department I do, and can get ME work.

She told me the ONLY time she's ever wigged out and gotten jealous was when her husband, who ordinarily works on an all guy crew, hired a WOMAN. She was young and hot and talented and bla bla bla. And good at her job, obviously, because if you don't have a penis, you have to be.

So here's the moment that stuck with me: She said "He's spending 12 hours a day with this person, I hardly ever see him, and all of a sudden they're best friends, and" bla bla bla. Then she says "Why would you want to work on an all guy crew? Think how the WIVES must feel! Why not pick a more co-ed department?"

I told her it's super simple - I am never going to bang anybody I work with. Period.A, I'm married. B, I want MONEY, not drama. She replied that I "don't put out that kind of energy". Meaning, I apparently "put out the energy" that I'm going to bang whoever, including your husband, so I probably should choose my department (and income) according to how likely it is that wives will feel threatened that I'm working with their husbands.

I'm really ****** off. I'm ****** off at my friend, more than ANY of the *** hats that conspired to ban me from working before.

After that whole story, I have to ask, has ANY MAN, in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND had to base his career choice on how wounded and threatened other men might feel if he succeeds?

Jeez. I wanted to vent. I've got problems. I'm ****** off about what happened years ago when I took a "man's" job and excelled at it. REALLY ****** off. That sparks a competitive impulse in me. I want to win. Winning will be being the boss in a traditionally male department. That's it, that's all. So simple. So achievable. I'll be there in two years, IMO, if the union doesn't screw it up again.

The fact that this woman I know and like would suggest I shouldn't fight - that I should find a job where other women don't feel threatened by me - OMG. I never saw that coming. I thought we were all on the same team. "Think of the wives" my ***. Why aren't "the wives" fricking working if they're so concerned about the subject?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I told you this place Earth doesn't look right! The comment above makes me feel like I've been stung by a scorpion. (re: well....are you?)

I think the lady is healthy and happy, all it takes to look like a tease to some people. So maybe Alceste you might find an old pair of overalls, cut your hair real short, and remember to wear your frown to work everyday. Do not listen to men's stories and for heaven sakes stay away from any man who knows how to tell a funny joke. You'll be safe I think.

Another one they use is that men need more pay because he must take care of the little lady at home. But what about the lady's little man at home?
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
I told you this place Earth doesn't look right! The comment above makes me feel like I've been stung by a scorpion. (re: well....are you?)

I believe you may have misunderstood my post. It doesn't matter if she comes off as a "tease". It's none of the guys' concern. If she is doing the job prescribed by her career and excelling in it, that is all that matters.

In other words...Dear Alceste: be the biggest tease as you can be. Haters are going to hate. Just keep working hard as usual.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe the point is that Alceste is not being a tease, even if she may well end up being perceived as one.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3506211 said:
I believe you may have misunderstood my post. It doesn't matter if she comes off as a "tease". It's none of the guys' concern. If she is doing the job prescribed by her career and excelling in it, that is all that matters.

In other words...Dear Alceste: be the biggest tease as you can be. Haters are going to hate. Just keep working hard as usual.

Thank you. I agree a woman should be herself at work. I do not agree teasing on purpose is a fine thing. It is not all right if a man teases a woman at work and the reverse should be true. I think it is not difficult to tell real teasing from being simply attractive.

The fact that this woman I know and like would suggest I shouldn't fight - that I should find a job where other women don't feel threatened by me

On another day when your friend's feelings are not so bad, she should take back what she said and probably would.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
मैत्रावरुणिः;3506201 said:
Well...are you?

I'm pretty hot, and I'm also really nice. Some guys assume that's a sexual invitation and are outraged to find out it isn't.

I told you this place Earth doesn't look right! The comment above makes me feel like I've been stung by a scorpion. (re: well....are you?)

I think the lady is healthy and happy, all it takes to look like a tease to some people. So maybe Alceste you might find an old pair of overalls, cut your hair real short, and remember to wear your frown to work everyday. Do not listen to men's stories and for heaven sakes stay away from any man who knows how to tell a funny joke. You'll be
safe I think.

I did cut my hair short, long before I got banned from working. Hell, I've shaved it all off, more than once. I wore men's clothes to work. Nothing that hugged my figure. Nothing provocative. It wasn't even on purpose - It was just comfortable, and I had a lot of work to do.

I don't frown, for heaven's sake. I'm working. They're paying me a metric crap tonne of cash. I'm happy with my work. I freaking whistle. I grin. I mean, it's a LOT of money, from my perspective. That's all I care about. Plus, I really enjoy the work.

I've had a few drinks, so I'm gonna be a bit brutal, but telling me what to wear and how to act, trololol, is exactly what I'm complaining about. Ask yourself whether you'd be explaining to me what I should wear and how I should behave if I had a penis instead of tits.

I'm not wanting to solve this problem by adapting to the prevailing mentality. I feel challenged and I want to win. It's nothing to do with my outfit or hairdo. I want to be the boss of those guys, and I want to be the one to decide whether or not they get to work (of course based on their competence, not their genitals). And I can be, because I'm busting my *** twice as hard as everybody else on my crew.

Another one they use is that men need more pay because he must take care of the little lady at home. But what about the lady's little man at home?
Yeah, well, my vision is that my husband and I are both kicking *** and making money, but I'm happy to take turns. :D
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I believe the point is that Alceste is not being a tease, even if she may well end up being perceived as one.

Yeah, that's about as close as you can get with words. It's not like I'm oblivious to the fact that people are sometimes sexually attracted to me, and I'm sometimes attracted to others, but IMO that has NOTHING TO DO with working. And I'm not banging anybody I work with. Never have, never will.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm pretty hot, and I'm also really nice. Some guys assume that's a sexual invitation and are outraged to find out it isn't.



I did cut my hair short, long before I got banned from working. Hell, I've shaved it all off, more than once. I wore men's clothes to work. Nothing that hugged my figure. Nothing provocative. It wasn't even on purpose - It was just comfortable, and I had a lot of work to do.

I don't frown, for heaven's sake. I'm working. They're paying me a metric crap tonne of cash. I'm happy with my work. I freaking whistle. I grin. I mean, it's a LOT of money, from my perspective. That's all I care about. Plus, I really enjoy the work.

I've had a few drinks, so I'm gonna be a bit brutal, but telling me what to wear and how to act, trololol, is exactly what I'm complaining about. Ask yourself whether you'd be explaining to me what I should wear and how I should behave if I had a penis instead of tits.

I'm not wanting to solve this problem by adapting to the prevailing mentality
. I feel challenged and I want to win. It's nothing to do with my outfit or hairdo. I want to be the boss of those guys, and I want to be the one to decide whether or not they get to work (of course based on their competence, not their genitals). And I can be, because I'm busting my *** twice as hard as everybody else on my crew.

Yeah, well, my vision is that my husband and I are both kicking *** and making money, but I'm happy to take turns. :D

LOLOL. I know. I was being sarcastic. Did you think I meant it? But that would id me as not a feminist, wouldn't it? This a feminist green thread. I think men do not call me provocative, unless in a bad way, because I am sarcastic. I'm not ready to shake it.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
LOLOL. I know. I was being sarcastic. Did you think I meant it? But that would id me as not a feminist, wouldn't it? This a feminist green thread. I think men do not call me provocative, unless in a bad way, because I am sarcastic. I'm not ready to shake it.

OH! Thank heavens! :D Sorry I missed the sarcasm. I've had a few drinks.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It's not like I'm oblivious to the fact that people are sometimes sexually attracted to me, and I'm sometimes attracted to others, but IMO that has NOTHING TO DO with working.

Sure. Unfortunately (and I am willing to be convinced otherwise) many men simply do not understand that. In some circles social reinforcement does not help either.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Yeah, that's about as close as you can get with words. It's not like I'm oblivious to the fact that people are sometimes sexually attracted to me, and I'm sometimes attracted to others, but IMO that has NOTHING TO DO with working. And I'm not banging anybody I work with. Never have, never will.

Well, unfortunately, it has everything to do with you working. Have you considered moving to a civilized country?
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
If the wives are that fearful of what their men are capable of, it's probably because they have crap husbands and married and the wrong person. Maybe they shouldn't be with someone who makes them feel that insecure that they can't trust them working with women.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I've just gotten back into doing work that pays well. Film stuff, bla bla. But I'm doing a specific kind of work where EVERYBODY ELSE that works with me is a guy. Not the first time - the last time I was banned from working by the union and the only "reason" I ever got was "some of the guys are saying you're a tease".

Long story short, I was really traumatized by that and didn't try again until now, when it's busy and I'm broke. So I'm working again, but I'm still the only woman in the crew.

Being older and wiser, I'm probing people a bit here and there as to their personal attitudes about gender and work. I've gotten three interesting perspectives.

1: Some men can't accept being told what to do by a woman.

This came from a guy I worked with last night. I was casually wondering whether there are other women in this province doing this type of work. He said yes, there are a couple, but they are exceptional at their jobs, because they have to be. If you're not a woman, just having a penis is enough of a qualification. If you don't have a penis, you have to bust your ***. The awkward thing is, though, when you bust your *** you get promoted really fast in this industry, and men FREAK OUT when you get into a position where you're supposed to tell them what to do. They hate it, and they will do whatever they can to rip you to shreds. That was enlightening, because it made sense of why I got banned from working by the union in the same week I got offered positions of authority by three different department heads in the same film.

2. Screw gender - the department heads just want people who can work and manage a crew, and men are better workers with women on the crew.

This guy assured me that department heads want someone who knows what they're doing, and can work hard, and gender doesn't matter, and bla bla bla. He didn't hear my back story or concerns, because he talked over me every time I opened my mouth. (Ironically, he didn't do that to men). He's right - on every job, there are noobs who know nothing, can't figure it out and won't ask, cynical, entitled pros who just want their hours and are happy to stand on the sidelines watching the clock, and people who work. Every key in the industry wants to hire the people who work. HOWEVER, the cynical pros who watch the clock are the most likely people who decide whether or not you get to work, because they are more involved with union politics. Anyway, this dude didn't get that, because he doesn't have to, because he has a penis and can do whatever the **** he wants and still work.

3. Think of the wives!

The woman who said this is a friend of mine who used to work in the same industry but is now staying at home with a kid while her husband works. He works in the same department I do, and can get ME work.

She told me the ONLY time she's ever wigged out and gotten jealous was when her husband, who ordinarily works on an all guy crew, hired a WOMAN. She was young and hot and talented and bla bla bla. And good at her job, obviously, because if you don't have a penis, you have to be.

So here's the moment that stuck with me: She said "He's spending 12 hours a day with this person, I hardly ever see him, and all of a sudden they're best friends, and" bla bla bla. Then she says "Why would you want to work on an all guy crew? Think how the WIVES must feel! Why not pick a more co-ed department?"

I told her it's super simple - I am never going to bang anybody I work with. Period.A, I'm married. B, I want MONEY, not drama. She replied that I "don't put out that kind of energy". Meaning, I apparently "put out the energy" that I'm going to bang whoever, including your husband, so I probably should choose my department (and income) according to how likely it is that wives will feel threatened that I'm working with their husbands.

I'm really ****** off. I'm ****** off at my friend, more than ANY of the *** hats that conspired to ban me from working before.

After that whole story, I have to ask, has ANY MAN, in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND had to base his career choice on how wounded and threatened other men might feel if he succeeds?

Jeez. I wanted to vent. I've got problems. I'm ****** off about what happened years ago when I took a "man's" job and excelled at it. REALLY ****** off. That sparks a competitive impulse in me. I want to win. Winning will be being the boss in a traditionally male department. That's it, that's all. So simple. So achievable. I'll be there in two years, IMO, if the union doesn't screw it up again.

The fact that this woman I know and like would suggest I shouldn't fight - that I should find a job where other women don't feel threatened by me - OMG. I never saw that coming. I thought we were all on the same team. "Think of the wives" my ***. Why aren't "the wives" fricking working if they're so concerned about the subject?

Oh, dear. I feel your pain. I hear ya, big time. Some of the most shockingly sexist statements I've heard were from other women. It's crazy.

I worked at a corporate job for a couple of years where in a room of perhaps 30 people and there were 5 females (and I was one of them), the statements I heard from most people when it comes to women in industry were that we were either power-hungry *****es with daddy issues, or we were sleeping our way to the top, or we were dykes. Either way, none of the work we did were because of our merit.

Every now and then I'd run into a gem of a person who understood that my numbers were stellar because I did my work well. For the most part, though, if was considered attractive, I'm a ****. And if I wasn't attractive, I was a dyke. But if I showed any assertiveness, I was power-hungry.

I once fired a staff worker at a store I managed because he rarely showed up for work less than an hour after he was supposed to report to his position. After addressing his tardiness a couple of times, and he continued to insist his girlfriend didn't want to drive him to work (to where I said to find another ride), I finally let him go.

He looked at me with shock and anger when I called him in. He said, "You can't do that."

To which I replied, "I just did."

But because I let him go, I was considered a ***** for not trying to work with him and his problems. I hired another staff member within the week who was marvelous, and was not high-maintenance. And yet, even though it was a good decision for the business and our front desk was thriving again, I was still a power-hungry ***** in the eyes of the other regional managers.

And, of course, when I moved up in the company as part the team that trains regional managers, of course it was because I was sleeping with the owners. :rolleyes:

Alceste, dear, go kick some *** and feel free to vent about the BS part of the journey anytime to me. You know where to find me anytime you want to. :hug:
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Well, unfortunately, it has everything to do with you working. Have you considered moving to a civilized country?

I've lived in a lot of civilized countries. :) This country is about a civilized as it gets, but it's interesting that there are still pockets of well paid work where women haven't made any inroads yet, and in those pockets all kinds of 1950s bull shirt still applies.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
In my last position before I retired all the best departmental managers were women as were the administrators. ( my opinion , and excluding myself:D)
To balance things one of the worst was also a woman.
After I left the Principal was sacked, when the finances went pear shaped, and a woman was appointed in his place. The turn round has been swift, complete and astonishing in its depth.

The unions in the UK are almost wimps these days, and have lost the ability to win most of their petty battles.

However even when women get powerful positions and do a good job, they are almost never paid the top rate.

I have no Idea what you are doing... but in most respects we all have to do the job and to keep our heads down till we have established a power base, that applies to both men and women in almost any capacity.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
Sounds like they must feel like they cant trust their husbands which is unfortunate.But their personal problem not yours.

Yeah, that's what I think too. I can empathize with her position - she used to do similar work and has been a stay-at-home mom running a craft business on the side for about ten years. She's not very happy with her situation and her self esteem has taken a big hit since she stopped working, IMO.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Oh, dear. I feel your pain. I hear ya, big time. Some of the most shockingly sexist statements I've heard were from other women. It's crazy.

I worked at a corporate job for a couple of years where in a room of perhaps 30 people and there were 5 females (and I was one of them), the statements I heard from most people when it comes to women in industry were that we were either power-hungry *****es with daddy issues, or we were sleeping our way to the top, or we were dykes. Either way, none of the work we did were because of our merit.

Every now and then I'd run into a gem of a person who understood that my numbers were stellar because I did my work well. For the most part, though, if was considered attractive, I'm a ****. And if I wasn't attractive, I was a dyke. But if I showed any assertiveness, I was power-hungry.

I once fired a staff worker at a store I managed because he rarely showed up for work less than an hour after he was supposed to report to his position. After addressing his tardiness a couple of times, and he continued to insist his girlfriend didn't want to drive him to work (to where I said to find another ride), I finally let him go.

He looked at me with shock and anger when I called him in. He said, "You can't do that."

To which I replied, "I just did."

But because I let him go, I was considered a ***** for not trying to work with him and his problems. I hired another staff member within the week who was marvelous, and was not high-maintenance. And yet, even though it was a good decision for the business and our front desk was thriving again, I was still a power-hungry ***** in the eyes of the other regional managers.

And, of course, when I moved up in the company as part the team that trains regional managers, of course it was because I was sleeping with the owners. :rolleyes:

Alceste, dear, go kick some *** and feel free to vent about the BS part of the journey anytime to me. You know where to find me anytime you want to. :hug:

Thanks, darlin'. The calls are still coming in pretty slow so I have a lot of time to recover in between people's stupid comments. There will be venting, though. :D
 
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