This is not Anti-Semetism- Why Zionism and the state of Israel are WRONG

[Caladan]

The world doesn't hate Jews, a lot of the world hates Zionism though, including some Jews.

Alot of people hate socialism and capitalism as well, the world will go on.

 

[fallingblood]

The world doesn't hate Jews, a lot of the world hates Zionism though, including some Jews.

Actually, I would have to say that that just as many, if not more, hate Jews. They are a minority, and as happens so often, they are hated.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Falling blood compared to the way the world used to hate us, I'm quite content with how it is now. My ancestors lived in Germany, and they not only went through the Holocaust, but there were episodes before that with the Crusades and such.

 

[Levite]

I find it sad to imagine that there are people who actually believe that the whole world hates them.

I have to admit, I think that the idea that the whole world hates Jews may really be a significant overstatement. That was, I trust, dramatic hyperbole, and not a concrete statement of opinion.

That said, I also think there is no denying that there is a lot of anti-Semitism out there, and whether you think Zionism is or is not integral to Jewish culture is simply irrelevant to whether anti-Semites will embrace anti-Zionism as a "cover" or aid to their anti-Semitism, and also irrelevant to the fact that most people who oppose Zionism and reject Israel are not particularly interested in the nuances of what ways Zionism may or may not be linked to Jewish identity in the modern world, or the complex struggles of Jews everywhere with Israeli society and politics. The average non-Jewish anti-Zionist, in my experience both on paper and in person, simply sides with the Palestinians out of white guilt, colonial guilt (though I think colonialism had nothing to do with Zionism), a knee-jerk liberal instinct to support those who appear to be the underdog, and a lack of unbiased or thoughtful information about the situation. And because statistically, most Jews do support Israel to one degree or another, the anti-Zionist simply isn't interested in parsing the gray areas: it's all the same to them, and they usually give some lip service along the way to not objecting to other Jews elsewhere, though, again, in my experience, it's seldom particularly passionate or believable lip service.

Jewish anti-Zionists, in my experience, have a much more complex and informed range of opinions. It is only the screaming extremists, like Finkelstein and Chomsky, who seem likely to actually be self-hating Jews. The majority simply have made different political and religious choices, which sometimes are accompanied by an unfortunate willingness to put up with the filth and vitriol that usually accompanies anti-Zionist rhetoric.

 

[fallingblood]

True, it has gotten a lot better. But personally, I know nearly no one who hates Zionism. Even more, I know nearly no one who even knows what Zionism is.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well Jews who disagree with Zionism (Levite and falling blood) if you want my opinion, it's more about Jewish ethics. Rather you define Jewish ethics religiously or secularly. Jewish ethics religiously dictate that Jews have a certain code of honor they must abide by in wars, and I have seen nothing honorable about the way Israel handles the Palestinians. Jewish ethics secularly, I could argue, are somewhat relevant to what others have done to us Jews in the past. The Holocaust is an example. I had family in the Holocaust. To me what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is no better then what the Nazis did to my Great and Great Great Grandparents. I think Zionism is inhumane and isn't about Jews as much as it is about a political agenda.

 

[xkatz]

Unfortunately, I think a two state solution is the best we can do for now. =/

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Unfortunately, I think a two state solution is the best we can do for now. =/

I'd be willing to agree to a two state resolution.

 

[fallingblood]

Well Jews who disagree with Zionism (Levite and falling blood) if you want my opinion, it's more about Jewish ethics. Rather you define Jewish ethics religiously or secularly. Jewish ethics religiously dictate that Jews have a certain code of honor they must abide by in wars, and I have seen nothing honorable about the way Israel handles the Palestinians. Jewish ethics secularly, I could argue, are somewhat relevant to what others have done to us Jews in the past. The Holocaust is an example. I had family in the Holocaust. To me what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is no better then what the Nazis did to my Great and Great Great Grandparents. I think Zionism is inhumane and isn't about Jews as much as it is about a political agenda.

What Jewish ethic, and who defines such? The Old Testament certainly did not show much grace or honor from the Jews.

Who defines this ethic? Even now though, the issue in the Middle East is just nasty. I see no reason why there should be a two state deal though. The primary reason is that it will not solve the problem. At most, it may put a bandaid on the problem. The fact as I see it is that there will be no peace in the Middle East. The problem runs too far down, and is so ingrained that a simple solution, such as a two state deal, will not solve it.

 

[Cosmos]

Sorry, but it is facts, Levite. The Ten Tribes of Israel have dispersed and interspersed across all corners of the globe. Palestine has been vacant by the Israelis for centuries. When we read the Tanakh we see how Canaan/Palestine became Israel as an inheritance, therefore there were Semitic groups preceding the Hebrews--also look to Genesis' account of Abraham traveling from Bactria (northern Eurasia), which is the northward regions of Iraq-Iran and into Central Asia. That is why there are Ethiopian Jews, Arab Jews, Cochin Jews, and Jews of Iraq-Iran today. Zionism has seen support from one primary group of Jews in this era and they are of European descent. It is an eschewed ideology of Jewry being propagated to the world. It is unhealthy!

(Note: I love the legacy, inheritance, and richness of Jewish spiritual culture.)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So falling blood, pretty much you think the Zionists deserve the land and the right to continue mistreating the Palestinians until they either leave Gaza or die?

 

[Levite]

Well Jews who disagree with Zionism (Levite and falling blood) if you want my opinion, it's more about Jewish ethics. Rather you define Jewish ethics religiously or secularly. Jewish ethics religiously dictate that Jews have a certain code of honor they must abide by in wars, and I have seen nothing honorable about the way Israel handles the Palestinians. Jewish ethics secularly, I could argue, are somewhat relevant to what others have done to us Jews in the past. The Holocaust is an example. I had family in the Holocaust. To me what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is no better then what the Nazis did to my Great and Great Great Grandparents. I think Zionism is inhumane and isn't about Jews as much as it is about a political agenda.

First of all, if you think that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is equivalent to Nazism, you need some refreshment on what Nazis actually did. I may or may not agree with road blocks, border crossing security, and the isolation of Gaza as tactics, but to suppose that they are the same as packing people into boxcars and shipping them off to death factories, or simply going round the countryside forcing people to dig their own mass graves and then shooting them neatly into them, is simply ridiculous. And I am not trying to play "my pain is greater than your pain," or claim something entirely unique about the Shoah in this case: I would make the exact same objections if you said that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians was equivalent to the Armenian Genocide, or the Khmer Rouge's killing fields, or Stalin's purges. A conflict which, by the figures of leftist peace groups like Peace Now, has claimed perhaps ten thousand lives, total on both sides (not a few being collateral casualties, and not intended by either side), over the past twenty-odd years, simply cannot be equivalent to the intentional slaughter of millions in a relatively short span. I am willing to accept as a potentially valid opinion that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is deeply unfair and harmful. I am not willing to accept as a valid opinion that it is genocide. If nothing else, Israel has-- by a vast margin-- the best armed military in the Middle East, if not also in most of Europe: if their agenda really was genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left standing by now.

Second of all, you are equating the Israeli government's political and military choices regarding the Palestinian uprisings as "Zionism." But one can be a Zionist and disagree with many, if not almost all, of those choices. I know more Zionists who do so than I could shake a stick at. I count myself as a devoted Zionist-- indeed, a religious Zionist-- and I disagree with some of those choices, and I support a two-state solution. I think it would be helpful to keep separate issues separate.

Third of all, I would like to hear on what rabbinic and philosophical opinions you base your claim that Israel's conduct in this war has been un-Jewish. I have taught courses on the halakhic ethics of war, and have studied the relevant laws both in the Gemara, in the Geonim, in Rambam, and in many commentaries and rabbinic responsa. I will certainly admit that there are some rabbis who might agree with you if you said that some of Israel's actions have transgressed the halakhot of war; but there are far more who would see the halakhah differently, and say that Israel has not done so. As far as I can tell, there is certainly room for a valid opinion that you side with the stream of precedent in halakhah that would view Israel's actions as transgressive; but with so many dissenting precedents, I don't see how there is a valid claim that the actions in question are un-Jewish. To label something as un-Jewish, to my mind, would seem to imply that the vast majority of Jews or the bulk of the Jewish tradition is condemnatory of such actions: but no such overwhelming plurality exists in this case. You may mean that Israel's actions are contrary to your vision of Judaism and Jewish ethics, and if so, that is a perfectly defensible opinion. But I don't see how you can objectivize it.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I'd be willing to agree to a two state resolution.

Great! Someone get Abbas and Netanyahu on the horn... Let them know that HM is on board with the idea...

 

[Levite]

Sorry, but it is facts, Levite.

None of it appears to be anywhere in the family of a fact.

The Ten Tribes of Israel have dispersed and interspersed across all corners of the globe.

First of all, I don't know how much I would want to base my arguments strictly on Torah: personally I think that's a bad choice for objective political argument. But if you insist: there were Twelve Tribes and not ten. Tribal identity is irrelevant: all tribes were part of the People Israel. The Land was given to the People as a whole, not to individual tribes-- that was merely how the land was divvied up. The Land was given forever. When the bulk of the Jews went into exiles, there was consistently a reassurance that they would return. And, since you mention it, many surviving communities of the Ten Lost Tribes have, in fact, been found, and now live in Israel.

Palestine has been vacant by the Israelis for centuries.

No, communities of Jews have always lived there. They were simply a minority group for most of the past 1500 years. But they were always there, and Jews have never made a secret of the fact that we have never renounced our claim to the land.

When we read the Tanakh we see how Canaan/Palestine became Israel as an inheritance, therefore there were Semitic groups preceding the Hebrews

This is irrelevant. Palestinians are not Canaanites. None of the Canaanitish peoples preceding the Israelite kingdoms remain today.

also look to Genesis' account of Abraham traveling from Bactria (northern Eurasia), which is the northward regions of Iraq-Iran and into Central Asia.

Bactria is tremendously northerly, in the region of the Hindu Kush. It is nowhere near the city of Ur, from which Genesis states Abraham came. Ur was easterly in the Fertile Crescent (Mesopotamia). And if you're going to cite Abraham, then it is irrelevant where he came from, since God swore the Land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants forever, and then repeated the promise to Isaac, Jacob, and to the people at Sinai.

Zionism has seen support from one primary group of Jews in this era and they are of European descent.

I'm sorry, have you seen the population figures for the State of Israel lately? The majority of the populace there-- and the majority of the populace, believe me, supports the existence of the State of Israel-- are not Ashkenazim. They are Mizrahim (Middle Eastern Jews) and Sefardim (Spanish/North African Jews). Zionism as an organized philosophy was late in coming to the Mizrahim, but they took it up, and were indeed very grateful for it when the Arab countries in which they had been residing for millennia tossed them out of their houses and homes simply for being Jewish after 1948. I have met countless Mizrahi and Sefardi Jews in America, Europe, and elsewhere who are Zionists. And the vast majority of Jewish anti-Zionists I have met are Ashkenazim.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

And the vast majority of Jewish anti-Zionists I have met are Ashkenazim.

I'd probably agree with this. I'm an Ashkenazi and a few of the other anti-Zionist Jews I know personally are Ashkenazi.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Levite let me ask you something. Why do you suppose a vast majority of us Ashkenazi are against Zionism? Do you think it's because we simply want to hate the state of Israel, or do you think the suffering of our kin in the Holocaust influences that in any way at all? Think about it and let me know.

 

[Caladan]

To me what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is no better then what the Nazis did to my Great and Great Great Grandparents. I think Zionism is inhumane and isn't about Jews as much as it is about a political agenda.

And this is where you fail to make a case and spout propaganda and rhetorics you have mindlessly picked up.
Please draw your equivalents between WWII and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and explain how a world war in which European citizens were exterminated by their millions is compared to an ongoing conflict in which both sides are active and also both side negotiate with each other a two states solution.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of many conflicts which goes on around the world, and as morbidly as it sounds is one conflict without an impressive body count. in fact both the numbers of Israelis and Palestinians killed in this conflict is a fraction of the casualties killed in Muslim on Muslim violence, but as we all know, when Muslims kill other Muslims its business as usual, but when Israelis engage in war its called 'genocide'. on one hand, I realize the world demands certain standards from Israel for being a democracy, and I accept that, on the other hand the double standards of many nations around the world is now blowing in their face, for example, European nations have criticized Israel chronically for years about the way it handles the Palestinian issue, but now when there is a 'Muslim problem' in Europe, we witness European nations go into lengths Israel never considered, unlike European nations Israel has never banned minarets or Islamic dress codes, and Israelis do not share the paranoia about its Arab citizenry that Europe now shows about its own Muslim sectors.

 

[Levite]

Levite let me ask you something. Why do you suppose a vast majority of us Ashkenazi are against Zionism? Do you think it's because we simply want to hate the state of Israel, or do you think the suffering of our kin in the Holocaust influences that in any way at all? Think about it and let me know.

I have never once seen any statistics of any kind, nor have I ever perceived through direct and extensive experience of the Jewish community (American, Israeli, and European), that any majority, vast or otherwise, of Ashkenazim are anti-Zionist. I believe that to be a completely false premise. If you have information to the contrary, I would like to know the source and see the numbers.

And concerning that small minority of Jews who are anti-Zionist, I think that the conclusion you are implying is invidious, misleading, and unfounded.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And this is where you fail to make a case and spout propaganda and rhetorics you have mindlessly picked up

Nu?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Maybe I misunderstood your previous post Levite. My apologies. But as for me, I know that the suffering of my ancestors not only makes me who I am regarding ethics and humanity, but makes me largely humanitarian. It was a tragedy, and I don't wish to see it repeated, and one of the things that really scares me about the state of Israel is it will be repeated. The Jews who live in Israel are living on the edge, literally. Do you realize what could happen if this isn't done right?