This thread is so gay

[Falvlun]

From your last post. You're offended by out use of the word, even though you can see we're not saying homosexuality is bad and aren't intending to be offensive.

Your intention does not really matter. What matters is how others perceive your usage, and you cannot control that.

You're offended because you think that use of the word could instill in some people the notion that homosexuality is bad, even though that's not a result of our use of it.

How do you know that your usage is not perpetuating the connection between bad and homosexual? Are you omniscient? Have you complete control over every situation that you have ever used the phrase "That's so gay"?

You don't know. Why not err on the side of caution and compassion when it really doesn't effect you all that much?

Also, your last post showed pretty clearly that you haven't actually been listening to anything we've said.

This is unfair. Simply because I find your arguments to be unconvincing and repugnant, it does not mean that I have failed to read or understand what you have been saying.

And again, as I brought up before, over the past 15-20 years acceptance of the LGBT community has skyrocketed, and it's only getting better. That's the same time period that our use of "gay" has become popular. Obviously our use of that word is not having a detrimental effect on society's opinion of gay people.

Correlation does not prove anything; you should know that. How do you know that the popularity of this phrase has not hurt, or held back in some way, the gay movement? Maybe the movement could be that much further, if people stood up and said "Hey, you know what, there is nothing wrong with being gay, so it's kinda dumb to use it to denote things we don't like."

And furthermore, you're talking like the movement has already won, and gay people are loved and respected members of society. That may be true in San Francisco, but it hasn't exactly reached Michigan yet. We have a long way to go before the majority of people in this country think of homosexuality in a positive light. And it just doesn't make sense to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Sure, and again, since a lot of other words could potentially cause harm and offend people, we should remove them, too. In fact, we should probably just stop communicating with each other completely. That way, we're sure to not offend anyone.

We aren't talking about those other words right now, and besides, their usage is often frowned upon in polite society. And note that we haven't had to stop talking with each other because of it.

 

[Falvlun]

I really regret making this thread I worded it badly and made it unbelievably insulting. It wasn't what I meant it to be. I'm sorry for the offense caused. I have been reflecting on my own jocular use of the word from time to time, and the fact that I don't consider myself homophobic, but, would usually consider someone who used the word black to describe something in negative light to be racist with rare exceptions.

Au contraire. I think the thread was a great idea, and obviously a topic which needed to be aired.

 

[monta]

It's all your fault. Have you no shame?

It's not all my fault, there are some unbelievable ******** on this forum, but I shouldn't have given them an opportunity to drop trou and flaunt it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's not all my fault, there are some unbelievable ******** on this forum, but I shouldn't have given them an opportunity to drop trou and flaunt it.

Yeah, like that wasn't your goal from the start.

 

[monta]

Yeah, like that wasn't your goal from the start.

 

[Falvlun]

I don't think I've ever seen a poll that was 50/50. That says a lot right there about how interesting this is.

 

[Magic Man]

Your intention does not really matter. What matters is how others perceive your usage, and you cannot control that.

Actually I can. If I only use it with people I know, and those people know how I'm using it.

How do you know that your usage is not perpetuating the connection between bad and homosexual? Are you omniscient? Have you complete control over every situation that you have ever used the phrase "That's so gay"?

I know because I know who I use it with.

You don't know. Why not err on the side of caution and compassion when it really doesn't effect you all that much?

I do know, and it's not compassion and caution I'd be erring on the side of, if I stopped using it altogether.

This is unfair. Simply because I find your arguments to be unconvincing and repugnant, it does not mean that I have failed to read or understand what you have been saying.

You're right, but the complete lack of understanding of what I'm saying while continuing to make your own points I've already responded to does mean that.

Correlation does not prove anything; you should know that. How do you know that the popularity of this phrase has not hurt, or held back in some way, the gay movement? Maybe the movement could be that much further, if people stood up and said "Hey, you know what, there is nothing wrong with being gay, so it's kinda dumb to use it to denote things we don't like."

Yeah, I think we can both see how silly that is. You're stretching now. The community has gained a lot of acceptance even while so many people are using the phrase, and I'd bet a whole lot of people who use the phrase support the LGBT community. Is it possible that the use of the phrase has retarded the progress of the community? Sure. Is it likely given the use of the phrase? No.

And furthermore, you're talking like the movement has already won, and gay people are loved and respected members of society. That may be true in San Francisco, but it hasn't exactly reached Michigan yet. We have a long way to go before the majority of people in this country think of homosexuality in a positive light. And it just doesn't make sense to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Actually I'm not talking like that at all. I'm talking like the community has come a very long way, and are well on their way to full acceptance.

We aren't talking about those other words right now, and besides, their usage is often frowned upon in polite society. And note that we haven't had to stop talking with each other because of it.

Oh, I see, so since we're not talking about them even though they're relevant, we can't possibly bring them up. I don't understand the rest of your points. Yes, their usage is frowned upon in mixed company. That's my point. And you seem to be missing my whole point, which is that many words can be offensive to different people. Should you stop using words altogether out of compassion to make sure you don't offend anyone? If you continue to use words knowing it's possible you could offend someone, why are you so selfish?

 

[Falvlun]

Actually I can. If I only use it with people I know, and those people know how I'm using it. I know because I know who I use it with.

But you have no control over how those people use it. Perhaps they are not as careful as you. And the fact that you use it supports and bolsters their use of it. You just can't control everything; you can't possibly know that you are not causing any harm.

You're right, but the complete lack of understanding of what I'm saying while continuing to make your own points I've already responded to does mean that.

What have I not understood? Really, this is not fair. Could I not claim that you have failed to understand any of my arguments and are just rehashing your own points?

Oh, I see, so since we're not talking about them even though they're relevant, we can't possibly bring them up. I don't understand the rest of your points. Yes, their usage is frowned upon in mixed company. That's my point. And you seem to be missing my whole point, which is that many words can be offensive to different people. Should you stop using words altogether out of compassion to make sure you don't offend anyone? If you continue to use words knowing it's possible you could offend someone, why are you so selfish?

You were being hyperbolic, and now it's somehow my fault? You brought up "all these words" but didn't name one. There's really not all that many that are a relevant comparison to the one at hand. The N-word would be one, and guess what? We don't say it anymore (in a derogatory context).

And if this was just about offending someone, I really wouldn't be all that hot about it. It's not just about offense. It's about changing the paradigm that there is something wrong with homosexuality. All this phrase does is enshrine the concept that homosexuality is undesirable.

 

[Magic Man]

But you have no control over how those people use it. Perhaps they are not as careful as you. And the fact that you use it supports and bolsters their use of it. You just can't control everything; you can't possibly know that you are not causing any harm.

I don't know for sure that I'm not causing harm by driving reasonably and doing everything you're supposed to, but I do it anyway.

What have I not understood? Really, this is not fair. Could I not claim that you have failed to understand any of my arguments and are just rehashing your own points?

You could claim that, but it wouldn't be true. The main thing you haven't understood is that the term can be used in two different ways without associating them.

You were being hyperbolic, and now it's somehow my fault?

Huh? You said those other words aren't relevant because we're not talking about them.

You brought up "all these words" but didn't name one. There's really not all that many that are a relevant comparison to the one at hand. The N-word would be one, and guess what? We don't say it anymore (in a derogatory context).

I didn't think I had to name any. My point was that people can take offense to a whole lot of words you'd never expect, but you don't stop using them.

And if this was just about offending someone, I really wouldn't be all that hot about it. It's not just about offense. It's about changing the paradigm that there is something wrong with homosexuality. All this phrase does is enshrine the concept that homosexuality is undesirable.

That's what I'm trying to get across. It doesn't. That's why the b word example is such a good one. The word is still around as an insult, but the other use of it is extremely rare, and as a society we don't see anything wrong with being born out of wedlock anymore.

 

[Revoltingest]

And furthermore, you're talking like the movement has already won, and gay people are loved and respected members of society. That may be true in San Francisco, but it hasn't exactly reached Michigan yet.

Heaven forbid that anyone would think we Michiganders are as backward as San Franciscans!
They're knuckle walking homophobic thugs compared to us.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Heaven forbid that anyone would think we Michiganders are as backward as San Franciscans!
They're knuckle walking homophobic thugs compared to us.

And we brits always thought Canada was the 'gay' son. :sarcastic

 

[Revoltingest]

And we brits always thought Canada was the 'gay' son. :sarcastic

Dose Canucks gots nuthin on us....except for their lumberjacks.
(Michigan got out of the lumber business in a big way a century ago.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Dose Canucks gots nuthin on us....except for their lumberjacks.
(Michigan got out of the lumber business in a big way a century ago.)
[youtube]5zey8567bcg[/youtube]
YouTube - Lumber jack song

Hehehe

 

[Falvlun]

I don't know for sure that I'm not causing harm by driving reasonably and doing everything you're supposed to, but I do it anyway.

There is no true need for the usage of this phrase, nor is there any benefit derived from it. If there were, then perhaps it would be reasonable to risk the possible harm.

You could claim that, but it wouldn't be true. The main thing you haven't understood is that the term can be used in two different ways without associating them.

I understand that this is possible. Here is where we part ways: The majority of people don't make the distinction. They use the phrase "that's so gay" because they think that being gay is an undesirable trait. Because this connection is still so fresh and predominant, is precisely why we should avoid using this terminology, to avoid feeding into that connection inadverdantly.

I didn't think I had to name any. My point was that people can take offense to a whole lot of words you'd never expect, but you don't stop using them.

But it's not like it's a surprise that using gay as a derogatory term could be offensive and harmful to the gay community. That's why your comment is a red herring, unless you have something comparable in mind. We're not talking about an obscure word that only 2 people will find offensive. We're talking about a very popular phrase that can be hurtful to a large persecuted group of people.

That's what I'm trying to get across. It doesn't. That's why the b word example is such a good one. The word is still around as an insult, but the other use of it is extremely rare, and as a society we don't see anything wrong with being born out of wedlock anymore.

Children born out of wedlock aren't fighting for their rights now. Gay people are.

 

[Madhuri]

I really regret making this thread I worded it badly and made it unbelievably insulting. It wasn't what I meant it to be. I'm sorry for the offense caused. I have been reflecting on my own jocular use of the word from time to time, and the fact that I don't consider myself homophobic, but, would usually consider someone who used the word black to describe something in negative light to be racist with rare exceptions.

That's really sweet of you Monta, and shows that you are a considerate person.
But don't feel too bad. Do you have any homosexual friends? It would be interesting to ask them if they take offence to the term used in that context.

As I pointed out earlier, culture has a lot to do with what people consider offensive or not offensive. I mentioned that I have homosexual friends who will also say things like 'don't be gay' or 'that is so gay' in this other context. It doesn't even occur to them to be offended.

 

[monta]

That's really sweet of you Monta, and shows that you are a considerate person.
But don't feel too bad. Do you have any homosexual friends? It would be interesting to ask them if they take offence to the term used in that context.

As I pointed out earlier, culture has a lot to do with what people consider offensive or not offensive. I mentioned that I have homosexual friends who will also say things like 'don't be gay' or 'that is so gay' in this other context. It doesn't even occur to them to be offended.

I have gay friends and relatives and they do use it, but I think maybe there is probably some unconscious element of controlling it by being the first one to say it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have gay friends and relatives and they do use it, but I think maybe there is probably some unconscious element of controlling it by being the first one to say it.

I think you created a fine thread because there is some interesting discussion.
But I just might be the last poster from whom you'd want approval.

 

[monta]

I think you created a fine thread because there is some interesting discussion.
But I just might be the last poster from whom you'd want approval.

Are we arguing about something?

I feel the thread was badly worded.

And I feel badly that this seems to have pushed people like Smoke into a decision to discontinue posting here.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

And I feel badly that this seems to have pushed people like Smoke into a decision to discontinue posting here.

Don't be absurd, that would hardly be your fault.

Pay no attention to histrionics...

 

[monta]

Don't be absurd, that would hardly be your fault.

Pay no attention to histrionics...

Smoke is one of the people on the forum I really like and respect.