Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[Vaderecta]

I said an open handed smack on the behind. That is not spanking. You don't listen very well, do you? Besides, it is now against the law in my country to administer corporal punishment to children. Kids now get away with everything, knowing that you can't touch them. We have a nation of spoiled brats and 'entitled snowflakes' who can't handle the word "no" without a meltdown.

We do? Because you can't hit them? Hitting a kid is a big deal to you I guess. (I will still suggest you don't hit anyone unless in self defense and hitting a kid in self defense in a very hard sell)

My brother has given you adequate medical information on the subject and so have I. Again, you don't listen very well, do you? How is it possible to have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to hear anything said against their own position. Try listening.

No you haven't. You don't even understand the texts you are quoting from. Giving blood saves lives. This is something you can witness for yourself. You are acting like you know some truth that if just everyone would embrace humanity would be better off but in reality if blood transfusions didn't exist anymore many people would die. And that is not a virtuous thing to preach. Just like violence is at an all time low and the world is not collapasing into worldliness and evil. It's not a question of me listening to you. I can see what you are saying. You just seem uncomfortable with the idea that you are someone elses parrot and don't want to look at the validity of your own arguments.

There are millions of people alive now because they were able to get blood transfusions and alternative solutions just would not have been sufficient. An open handed smack on the backside is not associated with positive outcomes nor does it prevent "Snow flakes". You believe these things but there is no grounding in reality. Don't hit people or kids unless its in self defense and get blood if you need it. (And give blood if you can.)

 

[Axe Elf]

Nice likeness. You are light on your feet.

And you are light on substance, but heavy on avoidance.

So long as you do anything but substantiate your claim that I contradicted myself, you are choosing "a) tapdance away from this challenge using smoke and mirrors."

Even if you do it for 20 more posts, it won't change the fact of your choice.

 

[Vaderecta]

Sometimes? When would that be may I ask?


When do we need a blood transfusion, and there are no other options?

Did you notice the article I linked, what was said?
Because of Mr. Greens low hemoglobin level, the trauma surgeons didn't want to operate. Consequently, his bleeding was never adequately controlled. Numerous phlebotomies to obtain specimens for blood work further depleted his blood supply Ultimately, only clear greenish serum could be drawn: His hemoglobin level was so low (0.8 grams/dL) that his blood was no longer red.

Mr. Green was our patient in 1997. Looking back, we realized that some standard nursing care provided to him was counterproductive, even harmful. For example, he was turned regularly, no one realizing that this would disturb clots that had formed to halt bleeding. His level of arousal was also checked frequently, fueling a need for oxygen that couldn't be met by his reduced hemoglobin level. Within a few hours,Mr. Green died.

In his case it set off a chain of events in our facility that resulted in a Bloodless Medicine and Surgery Program (BMSP). The program wasn't costly or difficult to implement, and it's been successfully used to treat all kinds of patients, including those with traumatic injuries. In this article, we'll tell you how we did it.

......
Everyone wins
In our experience, addressing the right of the patient to refuse blood transfusions has had many benefits. Clinical outcomes are improved because we have a program in place to provide alternatives to transfusion. The program also helps protect hospital and staff from legal lability connected to nonconsensual treatment. And even patients who don't refuse transfusions benefit because they feel more confident about their care knowing that the hospital is committed to a policy of blood conservation. The BMSP truly has been a "win-win" situation for patients and staff alike.

I am guessing you believe there is no longer a need for real blood transfusions and science has created a new substance just as effective and just as available that we should now outlaw blood tranfusions as your biblical interpretation of a few verses sets forth based on the watchtower and awake. Have you read the book of mormon? They are not against blood transfusions and don't have any of the scientific problems you set forth.

I wish it were true and some day it may be. That day is not today.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And you are light on substance, but heavy on avoidance.

So long as you do anything but substantiate your claim that I contradicted myself, you are choosing "a) tapdance away from this challenge using smoke and mirrors."

Even if you do it for 20 more posts, it won't change the fact of your choice.

Wrong again. Before your supposed challenge I gave you reasonable instructions. You ran away. Perhaps if you were not so busy rudely and improperly quoting me out of context you might have understood the posts.

You have made quite a few gross errors and you ran away when they were pointed out to you.

You could have promised to try to debate properly. You ducked and dodged instead.

 

[Vaderecta]

Wrong again. Before your supposed challenge I gave you reasonable instructions. You ran away. Perhaps if you were not so busy rudely and improperly quoting me out of context you might have understood the posts.

You have made quite a few gross errors and you ran away when they were pointed out to you.

You could have promised to try to debate properly. You ducked and dodged instead.

Any chance you two could take this to a one on one debate? (I think there is a forum for that) It has nothing to do with this thread and just berating each other is not useful to anyone.

 

[Vaderecta]

I answered that question as a Xian--Adam and Eve are the avatars for mankind in a parable that explains why mankind is separated from God by nature.

My reason for contributing my two cents is hoping against hope that maybe some person out there who would like to be a Xian but struggles with the irrationalities of pop culture doctrines, such as considering Adam and Eve to be real people, will learn how to understand the Garden of Eden myth in a way that makes sense for it to be the first chapter in the first book of the story of how mankind first came to be separated from God and then was ultimately reconciled with God.

Is Xian something you mean as ex-christian?

 

[Axe Elf]

Is Xian something you mean as ex-christian?

"Xian" is just shorthand for "Christian"; you know, like "Xmas" is shorthand for "Christmas."

The Greek letter "chi" (which looks like an "X") has traditionally stood for "Christ" throughout the centuries.

 

[Vaderecta]

"Xian" is just shorthand for "Christian"; you know, like "Xmas" is shorthand for "Christmas."

The Greek letter "chi" (which looks like an "X") has traditionally stood for "Christ" throughout the centuries.

I didn't immediately connect those dots. I think the only time I have heard that was eXtain. (Probably this)

)

Thanks Mate!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Any chance you two could take this to a one on one debate? (I think there is a forum for that) It has nothing to do with this thread and just berating each other is not useful to anyone.

We are pretty much done. He made some incorrect claims and to try to get away from defending them he was increasingly rude. Since it has broken down to open lies about me I am finished with him.

 

[Deeje]

We do? Because you can't hit them? Hitting a kid is a big deal to you I guess. (I will still suggest you don't hit anyone unless in self defense and hitting a kid in self defense in a very hard sell)

Apparently more and more parents are having to defend themselves against their drug affected children. Ice is an epidemic where I live. Ambos, paramedics and hospital emergency staff are getting violent abuse in their jobs like never before. I would like to do more than "smack" these offenders.

It appears as if a lot of these kids feed on a steady diet of violent video and computer games and it spills over into the school yard and classrooms. A good brawl also makes for a popular FaceBook post I'm told. It gets lots of likes apparently.

Just like violence is at an all time low and the world is not collapasing into worldliness and evil. It's not a question of me listening to you. I can see what you are saying. You just seem uncomfortable with the idea that you are someone elses parrot and don't want to look at the validity of your own arguments.

I am left to wonder what planet you live on? Violence is at an all time low??? The world is not collapsing into evil? Good grief....how is life in Pleasantville these days?

An open handed smack on the backside is not associated with positive outcomes nor does it prevent "Snow flakes". You believe these things but there is no grounding in reality. Don't hit people or kids unless its in self defense and get blood if you need it. (And give blood if you can.)

Apparently, you have no connection to reality.

You are acting like you know some truth that if just everyone would embrace humanity would be better off but in reality if blood transfusions didn't exist anymore many people would die. And that is not a virtuous thing to preach.

It is a virtuous thing to preach if it saves somebody from suffering the adverse effects of an unnecessary medical procedure that causes more problems than it solves. Warnings are being sounded by the medical professionals in this field......ignore them if you wish. People don't always heed warnings and then wonder why things don't end well.

There are millions of people alive now because they were able to get blood transfusions and alternative solutions just would not have been sufficient.

You didn't watch the video I posted...did you? That is not what the specialists are saying.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Apparently more and more parents are having to defend themselves against their drug affected children. Ice is an epidemic where I live. Ambos, paramedics and hospital emergency staff are getting violent abuse in their jobs like never before. I would like to do more than "smack" these offenders.

It appears as if a lot of these kids feed on a steady diet of violent video and computer games and it spills over into the school yard and classrooms. A good brawl also makes for a popular FaceBook post I'm told. It gets lots of likes apparently.



I am left to wonder what planet you live on? Violence is at an all time low??? The world is not collapsing into evil? Good grief....how is life in Pleasantville these days?



Apparently, you have no connection to reality.



It is a virtuous thing to preach if it saves somebody from suffering the adverse effects of an unnecessary medical procedure that causes more problems than it solves. Warnings are being sounded by the medical professionals in this field......ignore them if you wish. People don't always heed warnings and then wonder why things don't end well.



You didn't watch the video I posted...did you? That is not what the specialists are saying.

Seriously Deeje, all you have to do is to check statistics on violence. They are at the lowest rates in decades. Violence makes good news and since this is the information age it is easy for news services to find examples of violence that we did not have ten or twenty years ago.

 

[nPeace]

No thanks, I have no interest in believing impossible things, I would rather accept theology for what it is.

No thanks to what?
You said: I have no interest in arguing over it, if you want to believe go right ahead, knock yourself out.
All I said was same to you.
Yet it appears you do want to argue over it.
So I will work with you.
You accept theology as you want to believe it, don't you? You have no idea of what's impossible, do you? Why deny that you don't believe impossible things when you don't even know what is impossible?
Years ago, man thought it was impossible to take to the skies. It wasn't.
So you simply don't want to believe what you prefer to dismiss, isn't that true?

 

[nPeace]

I am guessing you believe there is no longer a need for real blood transfusions and science has created a new substance just as effective and just as available that we should now outlaw blood tranfusions as your biblical interpretation of a few verses sets forth based on the watchtower and awake. Have you read the book of mormon? They are not against blood transfusions and don't have any of the scientific problems you set forth.

I wish it were true and some day it may be. That day is not today.

You are guessing wrong.
It is no concern to me what people choose to do with their lives, or what science does or does not do. If science wants to spend trillions of dollars scouring the universe looking for planets, then scouring the planet for water, then scouring the water for microscopic life (these planets must be very young since they can only find bacteria Really?)
Right. Where was I, No it does not concern me that this world will do what it will do. Nor does it concern me what other religions do.

As far as I am concerned, there are only two forces. Either we are inference by one or the other - guided by one or the other.
Remember, the topic here was on the fall of Adam, but expectedly, the topic will change, because there will be those who don't believe the Bible, who will chime in and say as much - which @Katzpur obviously didn't want. Then the topic of JWs came up, of course - which then that led to blood transfusions. Hmmmm... I wonder who started that?

So you know, it doesn't concern me who wants to give blood, or take it. If one wants to take blood, be my guest. If I spoke to someone about why not taking a blood transfusion is beneficial all round, and they came to appreciate that for themselves, all well and good.
I remember telling someone about alternatives to blood transfusions, and they were quite interested and excited about it, as they were not aware.

However, what does concern me is the truth.
So if you are not speaking truth, and making false statements, then... we are not legion, but expect us.... to present the truth to correct the 'falsely called knowledge'.

Don't tell me one must take a blood transfusion to live. Show me the facts, or Expect Us. (Sorry, your avatar is influencing my words. I'll stop)
Don't tell me JWs are programed by the WT to take blood. No JW is chained down and manipulated by wires.
Why would anyone want to be part of a religion they don't agree with? Are there not hundreds of other religions out there? Does someone have a gun pointed at our family, and saying, "If you leave, they die"? JWs are not a gang.
It tickles me why people always try to say the WT this, the WT that. It's to me, madness.

Currently they are many persons in prison, from youth to aged. Do people imagine they are there because of the WT? No. They are there because they refuse, on their own volition, not to go to war; not to stop practicing what they believe in. They are not robots, programed by the WT, to do that.

Muhammad Ali was not a JW, and many more like him chose to go to prison, or die, rather that let the state control them.
Millions - not JWs - refuse blood transfusions for personal reasons.
It's not about the WT.

So here is what it's about. Revelation Chapter 12.
In short, the world under Satan's control is seeking to pressure anyone not a part of his world, to conform - compromise; give in.
It's not happening - not Jehovah's loyal servants.
This is why apostates, and ex-JWs are so bitter, against their former associates. It's because they know who God's people are. They know where the truth is taught, but they want to be two places at the same time. Can't happen.
JWs are not part of this world, of which Christendom - with it's multiplicity of religions are a part of.

The situation can be illustrated this way.
A person loves his pork, and literally pigs out.
Another choose to eat mostly vegetables, and avoid the pork.
Person A applies pressure on person B, to be like him - pig out.
So he makes up all kinds of stories, and ridicules, person B about his "stupid eating habits".
All person B is saying is, "Eat your pig, but don't tell me what's good or bad for me when you don't even know what's good for you."
So I say to people , 'Eat your blood, but don't tell me what I should or should not eat, when you don't even know what's good for you.'

If blood transfusion were so safe, would it make sense that people would prefer something different?
Would you even make that last comment? - I wish it were true and some day it may be.

 

[lukethethird]

No thanks to what?
You said: I have no interest in arguing over it, if you want to believe go right ahead, knock yourself out.
All I said was same to you.
Yet it appears you do want to argue over it.
So I will work with you.
You accept theology as you want to believe it, don't you? You have no idea of what's impossible, do you? Why deny that you don't believe impossible things when you don't even know what is impossible?
Years ago, man thought it was impossible to take to the skies. It wasn't.
So you simply don't want to believe what you prefer to dismiss, isn't that true?

No.

 

[Vaderecta]

I am left to wonder what planet you live on? Violence is at an all time low??? The world is not collapsing into evil?

That is correct. I could recommend books and studies but not sure you care to even research it on your own.

Violence - Wikipedia

Ethnographic and Archaeological Evidence on Violent Deaths

 

[Vaderecta]

If blood transfusion were so safe, would it make sense that people would prefer something different?
Would you even make that last comment? - I wish it were true and some day it may be.

Saved my life and two members of my family. We always give blood in hope to repay the gift.

 

[Vaderecta]

Katz no disrespect. I got side tracked a bit. There was no Adam or Eve. There was no garden of eden. I don't say that as I don't believe that but rather as someone who more or less knows those are just stories. Powerful stories. Stories have immense power. Eve was not created from Adam's rib as a companion or mate... These are things people would have come up with as explanations of their world in their time. We live in our time. Girls and Boys come from their mom. And they from their mom. This is now common sense but in their era they had no idea and so they wrote what they wrote. We all know this now and it is a really creative set of texts by people who never knew what a microwave was so cut them some slack. Jack and Jill, Hansel and Gretel, Adam and Eve and Valentine and Bean.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

They are supposed to save lives, but could a blood transfusion give you a heart attack?
I see you liked the one from the ex-JW. They alway give the most welcoming "facts", don't they?

I am wondering why an ex, when you can go to a non-ex at www.jw.org and www.Jehovah'sWitnessesBroadcasting.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where have you been hiding?
That's what ALL Christians believe. Oops, ALMOST all. Actually the original myth is that Jesus is the SON of their "god', which is only a little less delusional.

Perhaps most of Christendom believes ( Christendom 'so-called Christians' but mostly 'in name only' )
ALL first-century Christians believed Jesus is the Son of their God, so genuine Christians today also believe that.
Jesus believed who he was when he answered at John 10:36.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am guessing you believe there is no longer a need for real blood transfusions and science has created a new substance just as effective and just as available that we should now outlaw blood tranfusions as your biblical interpretation of a few verses sets forth based on the watchtower and awake..............

I am wondering how any biblical interpretation of Genesis 9:4 can mean it's okay to eat (consume) blood.
Also, to me it is plain English at Leviticus 17:10-12 it is Not okay to eat (consume) any manner of blood.
Plus, Deuteronomy 12:23-24 clearly says to me Not to eat (consume) blood.
Coming up to the first century, Christianity as found at Acts of the Apostles 15:20,29 I find it says abstain from blood.
It is up to 'Caesar' if he wants to outlaw blood. It is up each individual if he wants to follow Scripture or not.
I find 'non-blood management' is the biblical view set forth for both the past and present as found at www.jw.org.