Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[Subduction Zone]

Well, as I was doing some reading, the Bible shows that the fruit and tree were literal, but they symbolized something.

The Bible does not "show" anything. It can be interpreted in many ways. There are many, in fact probably most, Christians that do not believe the Adam and Eve story. It paints God as immoral and incompetent. It unjustly punishes the offspring of Adam and Eve and later in the Bible there were those that realized there were problems with sins of the father being passed on to children.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you watch this video from the 7:20 mark for about five minutes you can see a well presented human evolution from what a creationist would call an "ape" to us:

I will look when I have more time. I sure hope it gives more information than suggesting we came from apes by evolving even though apes and humans have evidently stopped moving along in their respective places.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Bible does not "show" anything. It can be interpreted in many ways. There are many, in fact probably most, Christians that do not believe the Adam and Eve story. It paints God as immoral and incompetent. It unjustly punishes the offspring of Adam and Eve and later in the Bible there were those that realized there were problems with sins of the father being passed on to children.

Yes, the Bible clearly clearly shows that the fruit was real not symbolic. Anyway, you shouldn't fret about punishment of any sort since you claim to come about by the evolutionary process. Therefore, it's all what it is. Now tell me, does evolution have a conscience so you know right from wrong? As I said, maybe you have no bad feelings about death. It just is what it is. Right? Why even think it's a punishment if you believe in evolution.

 

[nPeace]

Vertebrates and

Each kind is unique. Apes remain apes,and humans remain humans. So far none of us has seen apes or humans evolve. Now how many years do you think humans are in existence yet have not evolved? How about apes, still being born as apes?

If we are apes because we evolved from apes, what are apes? If they evolved from something, lemurs perhaps, then aren't they lemurs? So how do they get that we are apes? Then how do we get lemurs... didn't they evolve from... ?
What a mess of reasoning they give.
Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I will look when I have more time. I sure hope it gives more information than suggesting we came from apes by evolving even though apes and humans have evidently stopped moving along in their respective places.

Evolution has not stopped. It does not stop. It is a much slower process than the development of languages, but it is similar to it in many ways.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If we are apes because we evolved from apes, what are apes? If they evolved from something, lemurs perhaps, then aren't they lemurs? So how do they get that we are apes? Then how do we get lemurs... didn't they evolve from... ?
What a mess of reasoning.
Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps.

That is not really a very good source. It is a popular science site and gets quite a bit wrong. Wikipedia does a pretty good job on this one:


"Hominoids or Apes

Apes (Hominoidea) are a branch of Old World tailless anthropoid primates native to Africa and Southeast Asia. They are the sister group of the Old World monkeys, together forming the catarrhine clade. They are distinguished from other primates by a wider degree of freedom of motion at the shoulder joint as evolved by the influence of brachiation. In traditional and non-scientific use, the term "ape" excludes humans, and is thus not equivalent to the scientific taxon Hominoidea. There are two extant branches of the superfamily Hominoidea: the gibbons, or lesser apes; and the hominids, or great apes."

Ape - Wikipedia

Apes are not lemurs, but we share a common ancestor. That ancestor, like us, was a primate.

I can't copy and paste it, but there is an excellent cladogram of primates that shows our relationship with them here:

Primate - Wikipedia

The problem with the site that you linked is that they did not use the scientific definition of "ape". When having a scientific discussion it is usually best to use scientific defintions.

 

[YoursTrue]

Evolution has not stopped. It does not stop. It is a much slower process than the development of languages, but it is similar to it in many ways.

It must be very, very, VERY slow, since many believe mankind evolved from apes millions? Or hundreds of thousands of years ago? And apes, of course around for longer than that, extending into the long time humans are here...no changes for those times humans developed from apes, the two animals(you say) separate and distinct from one another. First the apes, then the humans. Younger? than the apes.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is not really a very good source. It is a popular science site and gets quite a bit wrong. Wikipedia does a pretty good job on this one:


"Hominoids or Apes

Apes (Hominoidea) are a branch of Old World tailless anthropoid primates native to Africa and Southeast Asia. They are the sister group of the Old World monkeys, together forming the catarrhine clade. They are distinguished from other primates by a wider degree of freedom of motion at the shoulder joint as evolved by the influence of brachiation. In traditional and non-scientific use, the term "ape" excludes humans, and is thus not equivalent to the scientific taxon Hominoidea. There are two extant branches of the superfamily Hominoidea: the gibbons, or lesser apes; and the hominids, or great apes."

Ape - Wikipedia

Apes are not lemurs, but we share a common ancestor. That ancestor, like us, was a primate.

I can't copy and paste it, but there is an excellent cladogram of primates that shows our relationship with them here:

Primate - Wikipedia

The problem with the site that you linked is that they did not use the scientific definition of "ape". When having a scientific discussion it is usually best to use scientific defintions.

Now that you mention it, apes and lemurs are quite developed, yet irrevocably different. In other words, one does not turn into the other. It just so happened, they say, that they evolved into quite distinct and different forms from each other, staying that way for--how long? lemurs as lemurs and apes as apes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It must be very, very, VERY slow, since many believe mankind evolved from apes millions? Or hundreds of thousands of years ago? And apes, of course around for longer than that, extending into the long time humans are here...no changes for those times humans developed from apes, the two animals(you say) separate and distinct from one another. First the apes, then the humans. Younger? than the apes.

For you and me, yes it is slow. In geological time, not so much. And there have been many changes to humans. Humans are of the genus Homo. Early man was quite different from you and me.

And you keep forgetting that we are still apes. All of the modern apes are the same "age".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Now that you mention it, apes and lemurs are quite developed, yet irrevocably different. In other words, one does not turn into the other. It just so happened, they say, that they evolved into quite distinct and different forms from each other, staying that way for--how long? lemurs as lemurs and apes as apes.

Lemurs followed a different evolutionary path, so yes, people cannot become lemurs and lemurs cannot become humans. The ideas of "turning into others" is a creationist strawman. Just remember that you are still an ape just like you are still a mammal. Your descendants will always be apes. And they also will always be humans. But they may evolve new traits so that a new name would need to be tacked on to describe what they are.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This article has a very clear cladogram. Think of it as a family tree. It shows your ancestors and cousins:

Primate - Wikipedia

You can see that chimpanzees are very close relatives and lemurs are rather distant ones. There is no going back and there is no crossing over. Once a branch occurs that branch exists forever. Or at least until the line dies out.

 

[YoursTrue]

Lemurs followed a different evolutionary path, so yes, people cannot become lemurs and lemurs cannot become humans. The ideas of "turning into others" is a creationist strawman.

Except that you believe apes did turn into another quite different function form. Rather solidly for quite a while now. Millions of years as to the change? Apes vs. humans. Apes naturally longer time existing before humans. And now humans millions of years, is it, quite distinct in habits and looks, from apes.

For you and me, yes it is slow. In geological time, not so much. And there have been many changes to humans. Humans are of the genus Homo. Early man was quite different from you and me.

And you keep forgetting that we are still apes. All of the modern apes are the same "age".

I'm not forgetting. I'm saying that apes did not evolve, change or develop to become humans. There is not one shred of evidence that apes became humans over time. Apes remain apes, humans remain humans. They do not morph.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Except that you believe apes did turn into another quite different function form. Rather solidly for quite a while now. Millions of years as to the change? Apes vs. humans. Apes naturally longer time existing before humans. And now humans millions of years, is it, quite distinct in habits and looks, from apes.

Wrong, I know. I can support my claims with evidence. You merely believe. Humans are apes so how can they be distinct in looks? You appear to be making empty claims.

I'm not forgetting. I'm saying that apes did not evolve, change or develop to become humans. There is not one shred of evidence that apes became humans over time. Apes remain apes, humans remain humans. They do not morph.

You are demonstrably wrong. And now you lost the debate by making a ridiculous claim. You clearly do not know what is and what is not evidence. Or else you are lying, and I do not think that you are lying. Would you care to learn what evidence is so that you do not repeat that error?

 

[YoursTrue]

Wrong, I know. I can support my claims with evidence. You merely believe. Humans are apes so how can they be distinct in looks? You appear to be making empty claims.



You are demonstrably wrong. And now you lost the debate by making a ridiculous claim. You clearly do not know what is and what is not evidence. Or else you are lying, and I do not think that you are lying. Would you care to learn what evidence is so that you do not repeat that error?

Wrong, I know. I can support my claims with evidence. You merely believe. Humans are apes so how can they be distinct in looks? You appear to be making empty claims.



You are demonstrably wrong. And now you lost the debate by making a ridiculous claim. You clearly do not know what is and what is not evidence. Or else you are lying, and I do not think that you are lying. Would you care to learn what evidence is so that you do not repeat that error?

1. You claim without evidence that the fruit of the tree was a symbolic apple or fruit and then say things like I am demonstrably wrong while upholding your end which is untenable although popular. The idea that the fruit was not real but symbolic is not in harmony with what the Bible says. But you can say what you want. In fact, it doesn't even make sense for you to say that the fruit is symbolic and was not a real fruit. One reason is that you don't believe it anyway, so how can you analyze it? You can't.
2. Then you say I am demonstrably wrong because I said humans remain humans while apes remain apes, and don't morph into humans, procreating, one male and a female at just the right time. Now I guess you would say humans don't morph back into apes.
3. There IS no debate, you may tease yourself into a grandiose idea that you are debating,but I am not. I am bringing out the inconsistencies of your ideas. The idea that two persons, one male and one female (apes to the best of my knowledge are not referred to as persons), with the ability to procreate while the others (apes) do not have that ability to procreate with their further evolved morphed beings is ludicrous. Such small changes leading to humans, yet no ability to have offspring between the two animals. Ridiculous.
shrug.

 

[YoursTrue]

If we are apes because we evolved from apes, what are apes? If they evolved from something, lemurs perhaps, then aren't they lemurs? So how do they get that we are apes? Then how do we get lemurs... didn't they evolve from... ?
What a mess of reasoning they give.
Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps.

Very good points there. Apes evolved from lemurs, but are or are not lemurs, if we are apes, lol. Apes are apes.
"Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps. We are all modern species that have followed different evolutionary paths, though humans share a common ancestor with some primates, such as the African ape. The timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with significant gaps.Feb 14, 2013" livescience.com
(timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with SIGNIFICANT GAPS. Significant gaps? REALLY??) And that from a supporter of evolution...

 

[Subduction Zone]

1. You claim without evidence that the fruit of the tree was a symbolic apple or fruit and then say things like I am demonstrably wrong while upholding your end which is untenable although popular. The idea that the fruit was not real but symbolic is not in harmony with what the Bible says. But you can say what you want. In fact, it doesn't even make sense for you to say that the fruit is symbolic and was not a real fruit. One reason is that you don't believe it anyway, so how can you analyze it? You can't.

The Apple is a well known cultural tradition. I could supply example after example. That does not mean anyone seriously claimed that it was an apple. I am amazed that you cannot understand this. Even people that believe the myth often use an apple. That doesn't mean that they claim it was an apple. Once again it is only symbolic. Seriously, where did you grow up?

2. Then you say I am demonstrably wrong because I said humans remains humans while apes remain apes, and don't morph into humans, procreating, one male and a female at just the right time. Now I guess you would say humans don't morph back into apes. shrug.

Humans are apes. There is no morphing. Let's look at a closer relative o af yours. Let's say that your grandparents had two sons. One is named Jimbo, the other Stan. Jimbo's kids form a different family than Stan-s kids. Jimbo's kids cannot morph into Stan's kids. But they are all your grandfather's kids.

The same holds for you and chimps. You share a distant grandfather with them. That grandfather was an ape. Chimps are still apes, you are still an ape, but a Chimp cannot morph into you anymore than Stan's kids could morph into Jimbo's kids.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Very good points there. Apes evolved from lemurs, but are or are not lemurs, if we are apes, lol. Apes are apes.
"Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps. We are all modern species that have followed different evolutionary paths, though humans share a common ancestor with some primates, such as the African ape. The timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with significant gaps.Feb 14, 2013" livescience.com
(timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with SIGNIFICANT GAPS. Significant gaps? REALLY??) And that from a supporter of evolution...

No, no, no. Apes did not evolve from lemurs. Check the article with the cladogram in it.

There is not any real controversy about human evolution either. Only the ignorant or dishonest oppose it.

And even though that article supports reality it got quite a bit wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not the best, but perhaps this will help:

 

[gnostic]

Now tell me, does evolution have a conscience so you know right from wrong? As I said, maybe you have no bad feelings about death. It just is what it is. Right? Why even think it's a punishment if you believe in evolution.

I don’t know what you school, college or university you had attended, or what did for living (job, career), so I don’t your education background or work experiences, so I hoped you don’t mind, if I were to ask you what you study or job you did, Sharikind?

Because it would seem you didn’t do much of science.

For instance, in high school, if you did maths, like statistics, algebra or calculus, then that’s what they would teach you in maths.

At no stage, in my maths class, did they teach us about conscience, morality of right and wrong, because they had nothing to do with maths, and they are not part of any curriculum in maths.

Of course, they want us to do our own works, no cheating in tests or exams, no plagiarism in homework or assignments, but it applied to all subjects, not just science and maths, but these are not part of curriculum of that respective subjects.

Evolution is part of biology. When you study biology, at no stage would they teach you conscience and morality, because it is part of curriculum of biology or biology-related subjects.

If you want to learn about morals and conscience, you would take a subject on humanities, or psychology, or ethics, or legal studies, or some philosophies on morals or religion-related subjects.

You wouldn’t be taught about conscience or morality in natural science (natural science are physics, chemistry, biology, Earth science, astronomy), but perhaps in social science subjects, like ethics, psychology, political science, law, etc.

Let say you wanted to be carpenter, would they treachery you conscience or morality in woodwork? No, they wouldn’t.

If you were doing apprenticeship in carpentry, then they would teach you how to construct from woods, how to finish or polish your works, how to use your tools, power tools or larger machinery.

You don’t to know good and evil to learn to use hammer on nails, or to saw some woods to size and shape, or to paint or to stain and polish wooden cabinet or furniture.

Learning about conscience or reading the Bible or praying in church, will not make you a proficient or competent carpenter.

You will not have no problem with people learning a trade or profession, so why are you having so much problems with biologists learning biology, including evolution?

You are not a biologist, so why should it matter to you?

You don’t trouble physicists, chemists or astronomers with your personal religious belief, so why do you single out biologists?

If you are not a qualified and experienced biologist, or zoologist or botanist, or doctor or medical researcher or pathologist, or paleontologist, or geologist, then you really are just expressing your opinions, and nothing more than that.

Why do you go about telling people what you clearly don’t understand, about what they can and can’t do?

 

[Looncall]

If we are apes because we evolved from apes, what are apes? If they evolved from something, lemurs perhaps, then aren't they lemurs? So how do they get that we are apes? Then how do we get lemurs... didn't they evolve from... ?
What a mess of reasoning they give.
Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps.

No one says they did. All of them, including humans, evolved from earlier forms.

Your ignorance is betraying you.