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Thoughts regarding the premises behind conspiracy theories in politics

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a thread regarding the Illuminati currently which brings up some interesting points that got me thinking about people generally relate to certain sub-set of ideas which are often relegated to the realm of "conspiracy theory."

Since many of these theories involve politics, which deals with realm of human governance and the total complex of relations within human society, one can make certain observations about the commonalities of human politics which can be discerned throughout the ages. Some of these observed commonalities might include:

- Most human societies are ruled from the top down, with a few decision makers at the top directing or guiding the lives of the many.
- Power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely).
- Wealthy people tend to want to increase their wealth, or at least retain what they already have.
- Businesses are in business to make money.
- Wealthy and powerful people hold greater influence over a given society than the common people.
- People who do bad or immoral things tend to want to conceal their actions from others.

In my opinion, these observations are self-evident and can be found throughout history as key elements in politics and human governance. Due to certain frailties and failings of human nature, human politics itself has always been a relatively dirty business. However, through most of human history, governments, politicians, and other powerful people have been rather brazen about exerting their power and flexing their muscle to keep the lower classes in line. The Romans would crucify dissidents and rebels openly for all to see, to send an unambiguous message that "we are in charge." The same basic principle operated throughout the Middle Ages, characterized by beheadings, burnings, putting people to rack, etc. Even the lowliest peasants, illiterate and ignorant, knew what the score was and who was in charge.
So, in other words, the ways and means of human governance and the wielding of political power has tended towards brutal, underhanded, and amoral/immoral methods. Some people might say "this is just how the 'real world' works."

Over the past 200-300 years, there have been movements advocating that society move away from those old, primitive methods of governance and work towards more liberal and democratic societies, as manifested in the American and French Revolutions, as well as a whole series of revolutions world-wide during the 19th and 20th centuries. People were demanding changes in "how the world works" and how the few in power governed over the masses in their respective societies.

To be sure, our governments did change. In the U.S., we have a democratic-republican political system, a Constitutional order with an emphasis on human rights, and an open society with a robust free press. Many Americans believe we have evolved beyond political systems which were associated with atrocities, slavery, cruel and unusual punishments, and other forms of human degradation and horror. Many believe that the world as a whole has mostly evolved from those earlier ways and that we are in a different age now. Technologically, industrially, and scientifically, this is certainly true, and life has definitely improved by leaps and bounds from the earlier, more primitive eras. However, after a few centuries of industrialism and expansion, that's taken a significant toll on our environment, eco-system, and climate.

This belief feeds into a common view held by Americans that America is on the side of "good." We are the "leader of the free world," fighting for democracy and freedom against tyranny and dictatorship. While I don't think many Americans literally believe this wholeheartedly, it does seem to be prominent within the overall American mythos and how we generally perceive ourselves. This remains true, even as many people often show open disdain for the politicians and the government in general.

But I have found that this belief seems to be often prominent in discussions regarding government when they're the subject of some kind of conspiracy theory. When people who have been raised to believe that they are living in the land of the free and home of the brave all their lives, the suggestion or possibility that that may not be true might lead to a reflexive denial and strong resistance to the idea.

Things that would be considered "politics as usual" throughout most of history - and even within many governments in the world today - are dismissed as "impossible" or "implausible" simply because...well...we're Americans and we simply don't do things like that. We believe in freedom, democracy, human rights, and good, honorable government. Of course, we allow that there will be some "bad apples," but our system works, and the bad apples are always caught. Good will always triumph over evil. Or so we've been led to believe, and anyone who doesn't believe it must be some kind of wing-nut or conspiracy theorist or maybe even evil.

For me personally, I've always been somewhat agnostic about conspiracy theories. I neither believe nor disbelieve, but I never felt any great need to go out of my way to challenge or confront anyone putting forth some sort of conspiracy theory. I don't generally entertain conspiracy theories that involve aliens, Satan, or anything that might be considered "not of this Earth."

But when it comes to theories involving politicians, bureaucrats, generals, police officers, or businesspeople behaving badly, then those are things I know exist in human politics in general, so I can put it in the "it's possible" category. Although, if there isn't enough evidence to prove it, then it may remain unproven, yet still within the range of possibility.

But I've discerned a strong resistance to the idea that "it's possible," as some people ostensibly believe that it undermines faith in the system and the ideals upon which it is founded. Because this is America, and we just wouldn't do things like that.

I guess what I'm really getting at here, when I look at the ways and means of how America has grown and remained powerful - and how we continue to try to exert that power, I ask myself: Has the world really changed that much? Has human nature changed? Have we really grown and become more enlightened? Is all this talk about "we are the good guys" just a big put on? Just some act? Are we just better at pretending?

I don't want to believe that any of these conspiracy theories are true, and I'd like to believe that we really are "the good guys" in this great human struggle we seem to having. But sometimes, I'm not too sure about that.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My dad, who I adored except for this one thing, was a big believer in any conspiracy theory. He was a product of his generation, which saw Watergate, Vietnam, etc. He always believed that there was going to be a breakdown of government, for instance, and he also truly believed in Bigfoot and that he had been abducted by aliens. He was what I call a John Denver hippie. I did not believe all that or really any of that, and I told him so. However, I did think it was POSSIBLE, but not LIKELY. I mean, why not throw a dog a bone once in awhile?

What I do not believe is that we are the good guys and those opposed to us are the bad guys necessarily. Sometimes we are and sometimes we aren't. At least right now we have the freedom to say so.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
My husband gets into conspiracies.

He's into conspiracies, insists the Illuminati is controlling this all behind the scenes, etc. He is not the more discussed MAGA variety that's popped up. He abhors politics as is, and generally refuses to vote(though I did make him go vote for the mayor once, which he did, and then penciled in my relatives for any others blocks).

I think there's probably a grain of truth to some conspiracies. A lot of it comes from lack of transparency. Folks can tell something is not quite right, but when they question its "nothing to see here, folks!" And then the stories start.

I believe in Bigfoot. Its just too fun not to. Yudhi and I talk about him a lot.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There's a thread regarding the Illuminati currently which brings up some interesting points that got me thinking about people generally relate to certain sub-set of ideas which are often relegated to the realm of "conspiracy theory."

Since many of these theories involve politics, which deals with realm of human governance and the total complex of relations within human society, one can make certain observations about the commonalities of human politics which can be discerned throughout the ages. Some of these observed commonalities might include:

- Most human societies are ruled from the top down, with a few decision makers at the top directing or guiding the lives of the many.
- Power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely).
- Wealthy people tend to want to increase their wealth, or at least retain what they already have.
- Businesses are in business to make money.
- Wealthy and powerful people hold greater influence over a given society than the common people.
- People who do bad or immoral things tend to want to conceal their actions from others.

In my opinion, these observations are self-evident and can be found throughout history as key elements in politics and human governance. Due to certain frailties and failings of human nature, human politics itself has always been a relatively dirty business. However, through most of human history, governments, politicians, and other powerful people have been rather brazen about exerting their power and flexing their muscle to keep the lower classes in line. The Romans would crucify dissidents and rebels openly for all to see, to send an unambiguous message that "we are in charge." The same basic principle operated throughout the Middle Ages, characterized by beheadings, burnings, putting people to rack, etc. Even the lowliest peasants, illiterate and ignorant, knew what the score was and who was in charge.
So, in other words, the ways and means of human governance and the wielding of political power has tended towards brutal, underhanded, and amoral/immoral methods. Some people might say "this is just how the 'real world' works."

Over the past 200-300 years, there have been movements advocating that society move away from those old, primitive methods of governance and work towards more liberal and democratic societies, as manifested in the American and French Revolutions, as well as a whole series of revolutions world-wide during the 19th and 20th centuries. People were demanding changes in "how the world works" and how the few in power governed over the masses in their respective societies.

To be sure, our governments did change. In the U.S., we have a democratic-republican political system, a Constitutional order with an emphasis on human rights, and an open society with a robust free press. Many Americans believe we have evolved beyond political systems which were associated with atrocities, slavery, cruel and unusual punishments, and other forms of human degradation and horror. Many believe that the world as a whole has mostly evolved from those earlier ways and that we are in a different age now. Technologically, industrially, and scientifically, this is certainly true, and life has definitely improved by leaps and bounds from the earlier, more primitive eras. However, after a few centuries of industrialism and expansion, that's taken a significant toll on our environment, eco-system, and climate.

This belief feeds into a common view held by Americans that America is on the side of "good." We are the "leader of the free world," fighting for democracy and freedom against tyranny and dictatorship. While I don't think many Americans literally believe this wholeheartedly, it does seem to be prominent within the overall American mythos and how we generally perceive ourselves. This remains true, even as many people often show open disdain for the politicians and the government in general.

But I have found that this belief seems to be often prominent in discussions regarding government when they're the subject of some kind of conspiracy theory. When people who have been raised to believe that they are living in the land of the free and home of the brave all their lives, the suggestion or possibility that that may not be true might lead to a reflexive denial and strong resistance to the idea.

Things that would be considered "politics as usual" throughout most of history - and even within many governments in the world today - are dismissed as "impossible" or "implausible" simply because...well...we're Americans and we simply don't do things like that. We believe in freedom, democracy, human rights, and good, honorable government. Of course, we allow that there will be some "bad apples," but our system works, and the bad apples are always caught. Good will always triumph over evil. Or so we've been led to believe, and anyone who doesn't believe it must be some kind of wing-nut or conspiracy theorist or maybe even evil.

For me personally, I've always been somewhat agnostic about conspiracy theories. I neither believe nor disbelieve, but I never felt any great need to go out of my way to challenge or confront anyone putting forth some sort of conspiracy theory. I don't generally entertain conspiracy theories that involve aliens, Satan, or anything that might be considered "not of this Earth."

But when it comes to theories involving politicians, bureaucrats, generals, police officers, or businesspeople behaving badly, then those are things I know exist in human politics in general, so I can put it in the "it's possible" category. Although, if there isn't enough evidence to prove it, then it may remain unproven, yet still within the range of possibility.

But I've discerned a strong resistance to the idea that "it's possible," as some people ostensibly believe that it undermines faith in the system and the ideals upon which it is founded. Because this is America, and we just wouldn't do things like that.

I guess what I'm really getting at here, when I look at the ways and means of how America has grown and remained powerful - and how we continue to try to exert that power, I ask myself: Has the world really changed that much? Has human nature changed? Have we really grown and become more enlightened? Is all this talk about "we are the good guys" just a big put on? Just some act? Are we just better at pretending?

I don't want to believe that any of these conspiracy theories are true, and I'd like to believe that we really are "the good guys" in this great human struggle we seem to having. But sometimes, I'm not too sure about that.
Conspiracy theories like ancient aliens, flat Earth, the Illuminati, are fun and I don't believe a thing about them. And why should I? Things like those have been debunked time after time.
Conspiracy theories that involve US three-letter-agencies, on the other hand, have most likely a kernel of truth. It's in their (clandestine) nature, and it has been proven that they are up to no good, time and time again. Every theory about the Cocaine Import Agency's nefarious misdeeds is instantly believable, because they have been in the past.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My husband gets into conspiracies.

He's into conspiracies, insists the Illuminati is controlling this all behind the scenes, etc. He is not the more discussed MAGA variety that's popped up. He abhors politics as is, and generally refuses to vote(though I did make him go vote for the mayor once, which he did, and then penciled in my relatives for any others blocks).

I think there's probably a grain of truth to some conspiracies. A lot of it comes from lack of transparency. Folks can tell something is not quite right, but when they question its "nothing to see here, folks!" And then the stories start.

I believe in Bigfoot. Its just too fun not to. Yudhi and I talk about him a lot.

Yes, usually it's when people bend over backwards and go out of their way to tell people that "there's nothing to see here, folks," that's when I start to pay attention. As it is sometimes said, "A bit dog will holler first." If someone protests too vigorously that they're innocent, it's a sign that they could be lying.

The lack of transparency and the culture of super-secrecy in government doesn't help, either.

Regarding Bigfoot or other such legends like the Loch Ness Monster, I put them in the same category as aliens and the supernatural. I'm agnostic.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Conspiracy theories like ancient aliens, flat Earth, the Illuminati, are fun and I don't believe a thing about them. And why should I? Things like those have been debunked time after time.

I agree, although I also see them as somewhat boring as well. There really is no political or social relevance to them, and that may be why they're largely tolerated even as they are considered the brunt of jokes. No one feels particularly threatened or outraged as they might be about other conspiracy theories which (for them) hit closer to home.

Conspiracy theories that involve US three-letter-agencies, on the other hand, have most likely a kernel of truth. It's in their (clandestine) nature, and it has been proven that they are up to no good, time and time again. Every theory about the Cocaine Import Agency's nefarious misdeeds is instantly believable, because they have been in the past.

Eventually, the facts and the evidence do come out (sometimes). I recall when they said that allegations regarding Agent Orange in Vietnam were totally fabricated and relegated to the level of "conspiracy theory." Even allegations regarding Watergate, at first, were dismissed as "ludicrous." The Pentagon Papers were another major revelation ("leak") which caused Kissinger to have a meltdown, as our deep dark secrets had been revealed and laid bare to the world. My sense is that the press and the public at large were more cynical and skeptical back in those days. A commonly heard phrase was "Question authority" back then, but now, people seem more trusting and gullible these days. What's more, they actually become angry and feel threatened by those who do dare to question authority.

I also take note of the tone which seems to dominate most public discussions and debates about conspiracy theories. Those who take the government's side often act as if they're attorneys defending some mobster (or maybe O.J. Simpson). They'll use every dirty lawyer trick in the book to get their client off the hook. And it may work to do just that. However, it hardly does much to engender much trust, faith, or respect in government. An accused criminal might skate by on a technicality, but he still has to do a heck of a lot more if he expects to gain anyone's trust again.

I say it's on the government to be more proactive and transparent, in order to earn the trust of the people. A mobster doesn't have to care about things like that, but a government does (at least one that wants to last).
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, usually it's when people bend over backwards and go out of their way to tell people that "there's nothing to see here, folks," that's when I start to pay attention. As it is sometimes said, "A bit dog will holler first." If someone protests too vigorously that they're innocent, it's a sign that they could be lying.

The lack of transparency and the culture of super-secrecy in government doesn't help, either.
Agreed.

It would take an awful lot of faith in the government in my mind to assume they're always going by what's right, or at least, what's said is being done.

I see how the stories get out of hand.

An issue I have with conspiracies are the blanket labeling of people who subscribe to them.

Say you have 10 conspiracies. 6 are clearly bogus, 3 are interesting, but don't really have enough information to say one way or the other, and 1 has you convinced something's amiss.

Just agreeing with the one will get you labeled the same degree of nutters as someone who's yelling about all 10 and standing there with a tinfoil hat.
Regarding Bigfoot or other such legends like the Loch Ness Monster, I put them in the same category as aliens and the supernatural. I'm agnostic.
For the most part, I find them irrelevant.

Unless you're looking for funsies, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster just aren't going to cause a lot of impact on a person's daily life.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I guess what I'm really getting at here, when I look at the ways and means of how America has grown and remained powerful - and how we continue to try to exert that power, I ask myself: Has the world really changed that much? Has human nature changed? Have we really grown and become more enlightened? Is all this talk about "we are the good guys" just a big put on? Just some act? Are we just better at pretending?

I don't want to believe that any of these conspiracy theories are true, and I'd like to believe that we really are "the good guys" in this great human struggle we seem to having. But sometimes, I'm not too sure about that.

Who's we?
Sounds like a conspiracy theory. ;)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Time for this again...
d5c862329c0ebb40f27b4326121b2c50.jpg
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Conspiracy theories like ancient aliens, flat Earth, the Illuminati, are fun and I don't believe a thing about them. And why should I? Things like those have been debunked time after time.
Conspiracy theories that involve US three-letter-agencies, on the other hand, have most likely a kernel of truth. It's in their (clandestine) nature, and it has been proven that they are up to no good, time and time again. Every theory about the Cocaine Import Agency's nefarious misdeeds is instantly believable, because they have been in the past.
Bravo.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Conspiracy theories like ancient aliens, flat Earth, the Illuminati, are fun and I don't believe a thing about them. And why should I? Things like those have been debunked time after time.
Conspiracy theories that involve US three-letter-agencies, on the other hand, have most likely a kernel of truth. It's in their (clandestine) nature, and it has been proven that they are up to no good, time and time again. Every theory about the Cocaine Import Agency's nefarious misdeeds is instantly believable, because they have been in the past.
To believe in conspiracies without cromulent evidence
is just dumb. But when they do have evidence, then
they're no longer a "conspiracy theory", eg, the 1953
CIA staged coup in Iran. They're just history.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The most ridiculous thing is when people who act behind the scenes with the favor of darkness... they deny conspiracies exist.

Here... the mafia boss Riina, answers the question asked by the district attorney: "have you ever heard of Cosa Nostra?"

And he replies: I have never heard of Cosa Nostra.




You know...it's like I asked a shoe if she knows what socks are. And she replied to me: "I have never heard of socks"

It's grotesque and comical :) :) :)
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
To believe in conspiracies without cromulent evidence
is just dumb. But when they do have evidence, then
they're no longer a "conspiracy theory", eg, the 1953
CIA staged coup in Iran. They're just history.
Some "conspiracy theories" are just waiting for (more) evidence and will become the history of the future.
How long did projects like Artichoke, Paperclip, MKUltra run until they were revealed? How long did the Tuskegee experiment run? Do you remember the Iran-Contra affair, or why Assange and Snowden went into hiding and Manning to prison?
And that are just the things they could not or no longer deny.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some "conspiracy theories" are just waiting for (more) evidence and will become the history of the future.
Tis best to dwell on those with evidence,
& not believe in loopy unevidenced ones.
How long did projects like Artichoke, Paperclip, MKUltra run until they were revealed? How long did the Tuskegee experiment run? Do you remember the Iran-Contra affair, or why Assange and Snowden went into hiding and Manning to prison?
And that are just the things they could not or no longer deny.
Examples of real conspiracies don't mean
that every conspiracy theory proposed
will eventually become cromulent.
Don't leap to belief.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Some "conspiracy theories" are just waiting for (more) evidence and will become the history of the future.
How long did projects like Artichoke, Paperclip, MKUltra run until they were revealed? How long did the Tuskegee experiment run? Do you remember the Iran-Contra affair, or why Assange and Snowden went into hiding and Manning to prison?
And that are just the things they could not or no longer deny.
The American Deep State have the IQ of a chimp...
I mean...they accused Assange of exposing confidential documents protected by state secret...which means they confessed those documents are TRUE.

If they had said those documents were fake, Assange would have been called conspiracy theorist...

I mean...intelligence is a rare gift. :)
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Tis best to dwell on those with evidence,
& not believe in loopy unevidenced ones.

Examples of real conspiracies don't mean
that every conspiracy theory proposed
will eventually become cromulent.
Don't leap to belief.
Do you consider Assange a conspiracy theorist or a robber of secret documents?
:)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There's a thread regarding the Illuminati currently which brings up some interesting points that got me thinking about people generally relate to certain sub-set of ideas which are often relegated to the realm of "conspiracy theory."

Since many of these theories involve politics, which deals with realm of human governance and the total complex of relations within human society, one can make certain observations about the commonalities of human politics which can be discerned throughout the ages. Some of these observed commonalities might include:

- Most human societies are ruled from the top down, with a few decision makers at the top directing or guiding the lives of the many.
- Power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely).
- Wealthy people tend to want to increase their wealth, or at least retain what they already have.
- Businesses are in business to make money.
- Wealthy and powerful people hold greater influence over a given society than the common people.
- People who do bad or immoral things tend to want to conceal their actions from others.

In my opinion, these observations are self-evident and can be found throughout history as key elements in politics and human governance. Due to certain frailties and failings of human nature, human politics itself has always been a relatively dirty business. However, through most of human history, governments, politicians, and other powerful people have been rather brazen about exerting their power and flexing their muscle to keep the lower classes in line. The Romans would crucify dissidents and rebels openly for all to see, to send an unambiguous message that "we are in charge." The same basic principle operated throughout the Middle Ages, characterized by beheadings, burnings, putting people to rack, etc. Even the lowliest peasants, illiterate and ignorant, knew what the score was and who was in charge.
So, in other words, the ways and means of human governance and the wielding of political power has tended towards brutal, underhanded, and amoral/immoral methods. Some people might say "this is just how the 'real world' works."

Over the past 200-300 years, there have been movements advocating that society move away from those old, primitive methods of governance and work towards more liberal and democratic societies, as manifested in the American and French Revolutions, as well as a whole series of revolutions world-wide during the 19th and 20th centuries. People were demanding changes in "how the world works" and how the few in power governed over the masses in their respective societies.

To be sure, our governments did change. In the U.S., we have a democratic-republican political system, a Constitutional order with an emphasis on human rights, and an open society with a robust free press. Many Americans believe we have evolved beyond political systems which were associated with atrocities, slavery, cruel and unusual punishments, and other forms of human degradation and horror. Many believe that the world as a whole has mostly evolved from those earlier ways and that we are in a different age now. Technologically, industrially, and scientifically, this is certainly true, and life has definitely improved by leaps and bounds from the earlier, more primitive eras. However, after a few centuries of industrialism and expansion, that's taken a significant toll on our environment, eco-system, and climate.

This belief feeds into a common view held by Americans that America is on the side of "good." We are the "leader of the free world," fighting for democracy and freedom against tyranny and dictatorship. While I don't think many Americans literally believe this wholeheartedly, it does seem to be prominent within the overall American mythos and how we generally perceive ourselves. This remains true, even as many people often show open disdain for the politicians and the government in general.

But I have found that this belief seems to be often prominent in discussions regarding government when they're the subject of some kind of conspiracy theory. When people who have been raised to believe that they are living in the land of the free and home of the brave all their lives, the suggestion or possibility that that may not be true might lead to a reflexive denial and strong resistance to the idea.

Things that would be considered "politics as usual" throughout most of history - and even within many governments in the world today - are dismissed as "impossible" or "implausible" simply because...well...we're Americans and we simply don't do things like that. We believe in freedom, democracy, human rights, and good, honorable government. Of course, we allow that there will be some "bad apples," but our system works, and the bad apples are always caught. Good will always triumph over evil. Or so we've been led to believe, and anyone who doesn't believe it must be some kind of wing-nut or conspiracy theorist or maybe even evil.

For me personally, I've always been somewhat agnostic about conspiracy theories. I neither believe nor disbelieve, but I never felt any great need to go out of my way to challenge or confront anyone putting forth some sort of conspiracy theory. I don't generally entertain conspiracy theories that involve aliens, Satan, or anything that might be considered "not of this Earth."

But when it comes to theories involving politicians, bureaucrats, generals, police officers, or businesspeople behaving badly, then those are things I know exist in human politics in general, so I can put it in the "it's possible" category. Although, if there isn't enough evidence to prove it, then it may remain unproven, yet still within the range of possibility.

But I've discerned a strong resistance to the idea that "it's possible," as some people ostensibly believe that it undermines faith in the system and the ideals upon which it is founded. Because this is America, and we just wouldn't do things like that.

I guess what I'm really getting at here, when I look at the ways and means of how America has grown and remained powerful - and how we continue to try to exert that power, I ask myself: Has the world really changed that much? Has human nature changed? Have we really grown and become more enlightened? Is all this talk about "we are the good guys" just a big put on? Just some act? Are we just better at pretending?

I don't want to believe that any of these conspiracy theories are true, and I'd like to believe that we really are "the good guys" in this great human struggle we seem to having. But sometimes, I'm not too sure about that.
I always find conspiracy theories quite interesting.

First conspiracies are most certainly entertaining to say at the least, I think most of us enjoy them , but there's also a certain percentage of conspiracy theory that turns out to be actually true, and that is why I think so many people are interested in this stuff even if it sounds outlandish and completely off-kilter.
 
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