Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S.

[InChrist]

I don't believe unbelievable stories.

Or just make things up.

I can't really identify with those who do.

Okay, thanks for expressing your thoughts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That’s not how I see it. Initially, Jesus said some would not see death until they saw Him coming in His kingdom ( Matthew 16:28). It was only 6 days later, when SOME were still ALIVE, specifically Peter, James and John did see Him in His kingdom glory on the mount of Transfiguration…

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. ( Matthew 17:1-3)

Later when Jesus spoke to the disciples about the end of the age ( Matthew 24 ), He indicated that the generation alive at that time, seeing those things take place, especially those alive after the nation of Israel being re-established (Matthew 24:32-34), would see His return.

That wasn't his return, that wasn't his Kingdom, that's not what he meant.

 

[Audie]

That wasn't his return, that wasn't his Kingdom, that's not what he meant.

If he said it still all

 

[InChrist]

That wasn't his return, that wasn't his Kingdom, that's not what he meant.

What was it then but His kingdom? Did you ever stop to think that because God’s kingdom is eternal, it is always present? As finite human beings we are temporarily in a timeframe surrounded by the eternal realm which we cannot normally observe. Peter, James and John were given a glimpse of that eternal kingdom.
I think it is what He meant.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What was it then but His kingdom? Did you ever stop to think that because God’s kingdom is eternal, it is always present? As finite human beings we are temporarily in a timeframe surrounded by the eternal realm which we cannot normally observe. Peter, James and John were given a glimpse of that eternal kingdom.
I think it is what He meant.

He was clearly talking about an event that is to happen much further in the future. Why else would he give signs of the times, say only the Father knows the day, and make it a point to mention some would still be alive to witness it? Baring illness, accident or murder then it's foreseeable that in just a few days almost everyone, if nit everyone who heard it would still be alive.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is actually very bad news for us all. As our churches have long been the heart and soul of our local communities.

Regardless of how you feel about religion, churches have been our community centers, recording births and deaths and marriages and reminding us on a weekly bases that we are a united community of human beings that share in each other's good fortune and suffer each other's heartbreaks. Everyone knew each other and had to look each other in the eye each week at church. And there would be a cost to those that behaved selfishly toward others as everyone else would know.

But that's mostly all gone, now. We're just a bunch of isolated, selfish, individuals looking out for #1. With no sense of community or responsibility toward God or anyone else. "One nation under God?" Not hardly. Now we're just one nation under the yoke of our mutual greed, fear, and selfish stupidity.

I have never been in a church which I felt created a sense of community outside of its own membership. To me this makes it a non-issue. Nobody will miss these churches. If they actually did anything to create a sense of community I might think differently about it. In my experience churches create isolation and try to hoard people from the community to themselves. They aren't supposed to. That is why I hope they die even faster. I wish they'd stop pushing everyone around and having continual useless altar calls and tests of belief. And crappy 'Bible studies'. You've never seen disappointment until you've been through a pamphlet led bible study or a 'Group study' where one person tells everyone what to think, and everybody there just wants to be 'Led'. And its just like...not a bible study. You go into these places and its like you've got to prove you are a believer. You can't just be there. If you aren't worshiping the pastor and doing all of the exercises they give, and approving of some ridiculous building fund and praising the pastor's resolve and courage then good God you are in so much trouble with God. If you aren't smiling and aren't dancing or aren't paying or praying enough or getting more people to come to church enough, then by God your relationship with God is in jeapardy! What an embarrassment! Let them die.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have never been in a church which I felt created a sense of community outside of its own membership. To me this makes it a non-issue. Nobody will miss these churches. If they actually did anything to create a sense of community I might think differently about it. In my experience churches create isolation and try to hoard people from the community to themselves. They aren't supposed to. That is why I hope they die even faster. I wish they'd stop pushing everyone around and having continual useless altar calls and tests of belief. And crappy 'Bible studies'. You've never seen disappointment until you've been through a pamphlet led bible study or a 'Group study' where one person tells everyone what to think, and everybody there just wants to be 'Led'. And its just like...not a bible study. You go into these places and its like you've got to prove you are a believer. You can't just be there. If you aren't worshiping the pastor and doing all of the exercises they give, and approving of some ridiculous building fund and praising the pastor's resolve and courage then good God you are in so much trouble with God. If you aren't smiling and aren't dancing or aren't paying or praying enough or getting more people to come to church enough, then by God your relationship with God is in jeapardy! What an embarrassment! Let them die.

I do agree. Mostly they'll call it serving the community, but they often do it on church grounds and don't mention iy much outside of their church. Some go out into the community, but even giving water to people on a hot day isn't done for the sake of just being a good person but rather as a gateway to start preaching and encouraging people to, if you fully think it out, to quit going to whatever church amd instead start going to the church of those who seem incapable of human decency without strings and agendas attached. Amd that's just not how Jesus told them to be.
Some try, but mostly they're in it for themselves. How they spend money tithed to them (by keeping it in their church) is damning evidence against them of that claim.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Our civilization goes back to before your
ancestors had gotten skilled poking
at cave bears with sharp sticks.

*dies

 

[InChrist]

He was clearly talking about an event that is to happen much further in the future. Why else would he give signs of the times, say only the Father knows the day, and make it a point to mention some would still be alive to witness it? Baring illness, accident or murder then it's foreseeable that in just a few days almost everyone, if nit everyone who heard it would still be alive.

Jesus said nothing about signs in Matthew 16, where He told them some would be alive to see Him in His kingdom. It was not until Matthew 24 that the disciples asked about the end of the age…
…”Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3)

Then He told them the signs that would occur (Matthew 24:4-35) and that no one would know the day or the hour (24:36).

So you are convoluting two separate passages concerning two events. One which occurred at the present time during the disciples lifetime and the other in reference to end time events which a future generation would see after Israel (fig tree) became re-established as a nation again, which it is now ( Matthew 24:32-33).

 

[InChrist]

Apology accepted, no prob.

But don't you think more important
would be to address privately, what
it is that would lets you feel so free to just
make things up?

And, FTM, claiming to "KNOW"
as immutable and absolute fact,
that some "god" about which you choose to
believe what suits you, is " the creator".

You do not know that. It is phony and
arrogant to pretend you do.

It’s not phony, arrogant, or pretentious; just reality. I do know. I wouldn’t be bothering to live my life as I do with my focus on Christ if I didn’t know Him. For over 30 years I didn’t know, then I was saved by Jesus Christ and knew and still know after years and years later.

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13

 

[Audie]

It’s not phony, arrogant, or pretentious; just reality. I do know. I wouldn’t be bothering to live my life as I do with my focus on Christ if I didn’t know Him. For over 30 years I didn’t know, then I was saved by Jesus Christ and knew and still know after years and years later.

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13

We don't doubt you think these things.

Including that you know more than any
scientist on earth.

Characterize such a belief as you will.

 

[Audie]

*dies

?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do agree. Mostly they'll call it serving the community, but they often do it on church grounds and don't mention iy much outside of their church. Some go out into the community, but even giving water to people on a hot day isn't done for the sake of just being a good person but rather as a gateway to start preaching and encouraging people to, if you fully think it out, to quit going to whatever church amd instead start going to the church of those who seem incapable of human decency without strings and agendas attached. Amd that's just not how Jesus told them to be.
Some try, but mostly they're in it for themselves. How they spend money tithed to them (by keeping it in their church) is damning evidence against them of that claim.

"Strengthening what remains" sometimes requires cleaning the wound. I'm not talking about destroying weak churches. I'm talking about churches that are already defunct, and I think there are many.

There has begun a tradition of pastors passing down their jobs to their sons! This is an evil unmatched since the beginning of the beginning. What further evidence is required? It may not be happening in most churches, but it is evidence of systemic corruption. It would not be possible without widespread ignorance made worse by garbage publications spread everywhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Strengthening what remains" sometimes requires cleaning the wound. I'm not talking about destroying weak churches. I'm talking about churches that are already defunct, and I think there are many.

There has begun a tradition of pastors passing down their jobs to their sons! This is an evil unmatched since the beginning of the beginning. What further evidence is required? It may not be happening in most churches, but it is evidence of systemic corruption. It would not be possible without widespread ignorance made worse by garbage publications spread everywhere.

Stuff like that isn't new in US Church history. Some circuit riders during the American Great Revival, for example, commented they liked preaching in the South where people were generally more receptive and less likely to ask questions. The European tradition of a learned Clergy wwas rejected early on, andit does no help that many of the biggest names to come from the American Revival where entertainers and salesmen, unrestrained and unhinged in their presentations, and far more concerned about quantity of selling tickets/putting butts in pewes thanthe quality of their message.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In short I do believe American Christians are mostly to blame for the mass closure of American churches. Even before Reagan they traded their theology for whatevwr feels good and makes sense at the time amd replaced it with cheap entertainment. That just cannot sustain those who spiritually want amd need more, and it probably does prime people for atheism if such a bad theology is where they're coming from.

 

[PureX]

I have never been in a church which I felt created a sense of community outside of its own membership. To me this makes it a non-issue.

Yes, many have lost their sense of community as our culture has become more and more isolating and materialistic. But just because you came too late to experience it doesn't mean it wasn't a thing.

Nobody will miss these churches.

My, aren't we the judge of all mankind's thoughts and feelings.

If they actually did anything to create a sense of community I might think differently about it.

You would have had to actively participate in it for that to happen.

In my experience churches create isolation and try to hoard people from the community to themselves. They aren't supposed to. That is why I hope they die even faster. I wish they'd stop pushing everyone around and having continual useless altar calls and tests of belief.

As the general culture has become more and more isolating, a lot of churches have become more and more cult-like to try and hold onto their members. That is sad, indeed.

And crappy 'Bible studies'. You've never seen disappointment until you've been through a pamphlet led bible study or a 'Group study' where one person tells everyone what to think, and everybody there just wants to be 'Led'.

I have been fortunate to have experience a very different kind of Bible study. So I know they do still occur. Or did 25 years ago, anyway. But even the kind of thing you're talking about created a community among those who wanted it. Unfortunately, as you point out, it did so by separating them from everyone else.

And its just like...not a bible study. You go into these places and its like you've got to prove you are a believer. You can't just be there. If you aren't worshiping the pastor and doing all of the exercises they give, and approving of some ridiculous building fund and praising the pastor's resolve and courage then good God you are in so much trouble with God. If you aren't smiling and aren't dancing or aren't paying or praying enough or getting more people to come to church enough, then by God your relationship with God is in jeapardy! What an embarrassment! Let them die.

Clearly you are resentful. But not all churches are that way, or have always been that way. And you are condemning them all based on your own very singular bad experience. And that might have been because you're the "odd penny" that won't conform. Which is, itself, a kind of isolating selfishness. Perhaps even that church provided a sense of community for the people it served.

But I agree that for whatever reasons many churches have not been able to withstand the onslaught of selfish individuality that our modern consumer culture with it's industrial strength advertising propaganda has created. Our neighbor loses their job and their home or a loved one and we really couldn't care less. So long as it's not us. We all live in the tiny community of 'me and mine', now. And everyone else is just competition. Churches used to be a place where people were brought together to look after each other. Now they're becoming just another business on the block. Selling their wares by hook or by crook. Another wanna-be monopoly.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, many have lost their sense of community as our culture has become more and more isolating and materialistic. But just because you came too late to experience it doesn't mean it wasn't a thing.
My, aren't we the judge of all mankind's thoughts and feelings.
You would have had to actively participate in it for that to happen.
As the general culture has become more and more isolating, a lot of churches have become more and more cult-like to try and hold onto their members. That is sad, indeed.

I hold the churches responsible to be something other than a stage prop, while your post treats them as products of the environment. I suppose your theory is that they are failing because of the evil corporations, but you don't hold them responsible for the evil corporations. In fact they are responsible to be salt and light, and those that aren't salt and light should disappear.

I have been fortunate to have experience a very different kind of Bible study. So I know they do still occur. Or did 25 years ago, anyway. But even the kind of thing you're talking about created a community among those who wanted it. Unfortunately, as you point out, it did so by separating them from everyone else.

The #1 message is "Don't church hop," even amidst the altar calls and other messages that is the one. Its held to be so important that people will attend neighboring buildings for years and not meet. This is common not the exception.

Clearly you are resentful. But not all churches are that way, or have always been that way. And you are condemning them all based on your own very singular bad experience. And that might have been because you're the "odd penny" that won't conform. Which is, itself, a kind of isolating selfishness. Perhaps even that church provided a sense of community for the people it served.

But I agree that for whatever reasons many churches have not been able to withstand the onslaught of selfish individuality that our modern consumer culture with it's industrial strength advertising propaganda has created. Our neighbor loses their job and their home or a loved one and we really couldn't care less. So long as it's not us. We all live in the tiny community of 'me and mine', now. And everyone else is just competition. Churches used to be a place where people were brought together to look after each other. Now they're becoming just another business on the block. Selling their wares by hook or by crook. Another wanna-be monopoly.

The tiny community of me and mine which you protest is a by-product of many churches. I have not condemned all churches, but baby factories that disappear for the above reasons should not be missed. Communities are like windswept deserts, and the churches on every street corner are like obelisks. There is little life in between other than auto traffic. Everyone is encouraged to find a church that suits them but not to visit around after that.

 

[metis]

What was it then but His kingdom? Did you ever stop to think that because God’s kingdom is eternal, it is always present?

I tend to agree with this, so since it is eternal, then it must have also extended back before Jesus and Moses, right?

 

[metis]

In short I do believe American Christians are mostly to blame for the mass closure of American churches. Even before Reagan they traded their theology for whatevwr feels good and makes sense at the time amd replaced it with cheap entertainment. That just cannot sustain those who spiritually want amd need more, and it probably does prime people for atheism if such a bad theology is where they're coming from.

And we're seeing this in "spades" with the "religious right" here who blindly support Trump no matter what he says and does.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

?

I loved the burn