Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

[fantome profane]

I've got eternal life (according to my signature)

Don’t care. If you attack the capital you should go jail. Mr. Ambassador.

 

[John53]

That is a good question. I tend to leave that to God (in my faith). He knows the hearts of men.

I don't know if it's a good question but it seems to be an unanswerable question.

 

[F1fan]

That is a good question. I tend to leave that to God (in my faith). He knows the hearts of men.

I like saying that we will have two surprises in Heaven.

1) We will be surprised to see some people
2) We will be surprised we didn't see some people.

Many Christians will be shocked to end up in hell and wonder where the atheists are, and why God didn't judge them to damnation. Well, the atheists were honest. The Christians who assume they are automatically saved because they believe still have to show good, liberal values, as Jesus taught.

So I concentrate on working out my own salvation.

That sounds like healthy doubt. Don't be too certain of your salvation.

 

[InChrist]

We could test that by asking someone who's Jewish, no?

Not necessarily. The majority of Jews, especially the religious leaders, missed understanding the messianic prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus Christ. But certainly not all the Jewish people did because the first Christians were Jewish and the came to understand that Jesus was their Messiah, as well as God along with the Father and Holy Spirit. So the early church had already grasped the concept of the triune nature of God we’ll before the 4th century.

The first thing to note about the Trinity is that all five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ Paul's and each gospel's ─ not only never claim to be God but expressly deny they're God. (For example 1 Corinthians 8:6, Philippians 2:11, Mark 12:29-32, Matthew 20:23, Matthew 24:36, Luke 18:19, John 17:3, John 20:17.)

The second thing to note about the Trinity doctrine is that not only is it incoherent, but that the churches admit it's incoherent, though the expression they use is "a mystery in the strict sense". A mystery in the strict sense "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine. If you unpack them you'll see that "a nonsense" would be a fine synonym.

The problem with the Trinity doctrine is that in declaring "the one God exists as three persons and one substance" they also declare that each of the Father, Jesus and the Ghost is 100% of God, but the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost. 100%+100%+100%=300%= 3 gods, but the doctrine denies this, thus creating the incoherence. If Christianity were to say out loud that since the 4th century CE it's had three gods, there would be no such problem, of course. Meanwhile, when you pray to God, who answers the phone?

A further question that arises is whether God has three wills. If the Father has his own will, and Jesus has his own will and the Ghost has his own will, how are differences between those wills resolved? Does the Father's will always prevail, for example, or can [he] be outvoted?

Whereas if the triune God does not have three wills then [he] only has one will and there's no important sense in which [he]'s three persons.

I’m not going to address each verse you listed above, but I see no conflict with the deity of Christ and the scripture verses you listed when they are read in context of the entirety of the Bible and taking into account the words Jesus spoke in the Gospels were from His position in human form. I think the more pertinent question is; how could the Only begotten Son of God be anything but God? Human sons are human, are they not? What else would God’s only Son be?
I find the Triune Nature of God to be very coherent and the only explanation of God which makes sense in light of the scriptures. There’s nothing wrong with referring to this triune nature of Three Persons, yet One God as mysterious though. The infinite Being of an eternal Spirit/ God is certainly a mystery to limited finite human comprehension.

If you want to discuss each verse you listed we could, but it’s off topic for this thread, don’t you think?

 

[InChrist]

You conveniently left out the bit where you asked "so what goes on in private?". It seems you have at least insinuated that he is.

I did not conveniently leave anything out, since I had already said what you quoted. I think it’s a legitimate question when seeing the way Biden handles children in public on camera.

 

[F1fan]

I did not conveniently leave anything out, since I had already said what you quoted. I think it’s a legitimate question when seeing the way Biden handles children in public on camera.

You must have something against grandfathers. And I take it you have a problem with human touch? What happened to you?

 

[InChrist]

You must have something against grandfathers. And I take it you have a problem with human touch? What happened to you?

I have no problem with human touch. But Biden is NOT the grandfather of those young girls. I do have a problem with some man touching girls inappropriately and so obviously pulling the little girls closer when they are trying to move away and get some space. I have friends who were molested as children and they easily spot and point out the inappropriate touching and behavior they see.

 

[blü 2]

Not necessarily. The majority of Jews, especially the religious leaders, missed understanding the messianic prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Alternatively, it may be closer to the facts of history if the authors of the gospels invented a narrative out of selected passages in the Tanakh which they thought could be reinterpreted, perhaps midrashwise, to tell the story they wanted to tell. So (to take some simple examples) the author of Matthew invents the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2; and he invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1; and he absurdly sits Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (out loud, Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9.

the first Christians were Jewish and the came to understand that Jesus was their Messiah

Yes, the evidence points to Christianity beginning as a small Jewish sect, and quite early thought of Jesus as a messiah. But you can see why this idea didn't catch on ─ Jesus has none of the qualifications of a Jewish messiah, being neither a civil nor military nor religious leader of the Jews, nor ever anointed by the Jewish priesthood, which is what 'messiah' means. No ordinary Jew had any reason to think he was one.

God along with the Father and Holy Spirit.

As I understand it, in Judaism the ruach ("breath") of God is thought of as one of the manifestations of God, not as an entity distinct from the Jewish God. Only in Christianity is the Holy Ghost is thought of as being a 'person' distinct from God the Father.

So the early church had already grasped the concept of the triune nature of God we’ll before the 4th century.

I agree that before the 4th century there are Christian references to Father, Son and Ghost, and a groundswell from early on to elevate Jesus to God level (despite the very clear denials by each version of Jesus in the NT that he's God). However, this doesn't become orthodoxy until the 4th century, when the basics of the Trinity doctrine are laid down.

I’m not going to address each verse you listed above, but I see no conflict with the deity of Christ and the scripture verses you listed when they are read in context of the entirety of the Bible.

I'm afraid we can't agree that there's any such context ─ from my point of view, only Christian attempts at retrofitting, as I said above.

As for the denials, to take just one example,

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
​

seems to be simple and extremely clear ─ there is only one true God and it isn't Jesus, it's the Jewish God, the God Jesus, a circumcised Jew, says he worships ─

John 20:17 [...] I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

how could the Only begotten Son of God be anything but God? Human sons are human, are they not? What else would God’s only Son be?

First, the Jesus of Mark is an ordinary Jew until his baptism, at which the heavens open and God adopts Jesus as [his] son, the same way [he] had adopted David as [his] son in Psalm 2:7. Mark's Jesus isn't even descended from David.

Second, the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke are the genetic sons of God via the divine insemination of a virgin, and thus possess God's Y-chromosome. They are said to be descended from David via fake and incompatible genealogies that can't be relevant to Jesus because they're expressly for Joseph, who is NOT Jesus' father.

Third, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John are gnostic beings who unlike the three above had pre-existed in heaven with God and in the role of the gnostic demiurge had created the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.) They're each said to be descended from David but just how is never explained.

I find the Triune Nature of God to be very coherent and the only explanation of God which makes sense in light of the scriptures.

So how does the voting go when the Father, Jesus and the Ghost disagree? Does the Father have the casting vote or can he be outvoted?

On the other hand, if they NEVER disagree then they only have one will, so they're only one person, so Jesus and the Ghost are just different manifestations of the Father ─ again a proposition incompatible with the NT.

 

[F1fan]

I have no problem with human touch. But Biden is NOT the grandfather of those young girls. I do have a problem with some man touching girls inappropriately and so obviously pulling the little girls closer when they are trying to move away and get some space. I have friends who were molested as children and they easily spot and point out the inappropriate touching and behavior they see.

How many parents have filed complaints? It's zero. So who cares what you and your anti-liberal, biased mind thinks about Biden when parents aren't bothered by a grandfather being grandfatherly.

What is good is that you are bringing up this old and outdated issue because that means there is no substantial issue you have to complain about over Biden.

 

[John53]

I did not conveniently leave anything out

Yeah ya did

, since I had already said what you quoted.

Yes you said it but conveniently left it out when you denied accusing him of being a paedophile. It's very easy to scroll back and see.

I think it’s a legitimate question when seeing the way Biden handles children in public on camera.

You don't even know if he's ever alone with children so it's nothing but innuendo.

 

[sayak83]

And should the police who were waving people in go to jail too?

More video shows police waving protesters into Capitol on Jan. 6

THROW ALL OF THE CAPITOL POLICE INTO JAILS.... Well... maybe that is also a little too radical.

I'm so good God more merciful (at least in my faith - other religions may have a different viewpoint)

If some of the police were actually inciting the insurrectionists then they should be punished even more severely than the insurrectionists. Absolutely.

 

[Kenny]

Don’t care. If you attack the capital you should go jail. Mr. Ambassador.

If you attack, yes, you should. Just as if you should get a speeding ticket if you exceed the speed limit.

My point was simply that Grandma really didn't "attack" the Capitol as policemen just waved people in. But, as mankind is, no mercy even as they attack God who is a God of mercy.

Policemen give mercy when they say "this is a warning". Revoltingest got it right when he said, "Probably just a fine" - a slap on the hand and "naughty, naughty Grandma"

In my faith, God is extending mercy every day.

So, as I said, how can we complain about God when we can't even extend mercy to a 69 year old Grandma?

 

[fantome profane]

If you attack, yes, you should. Just as if you should get a speeding ticket if you exceed the speed limit.

My point was simply that Grandma really didn't "attack" the Capitol as policemen just waved people in. But, as mankind is, no mercy even as they attack God who is a God of mercy.

Policemen give mercy when they say "this is a warning". Revoltingest got it right when he said, "Probably just a fine" - a slap on the hand and "naughty, naughty Grandma"

In my faith, God is extending mercy every day.

So, as I said, how can we complain about God when we can't even extend mercy to a 69 year old Grandma?

I think if a group of people conspire to rob a bank, and one of them takes a teller hostage, another breaks into the vault, and one of them just distracts the guard, they are all guilty of conspiracy to rob the bank.

That is what “grandma” did. She deliberately distracted the guards so others could take over the capital.

I am not without mercy. I am not saying throw her in jail and throw away the key. But I do think she deserves some prison time. One year in jail and 10 years probation seems like a merciful sentence to me.

 

[Kenny]

I think if a group of people conspire to rob a bank, and one of them takes a teller hostage, another breaks into the vault, and one of them just distracts the guard, they are all guilty of conspiracy to rob the bank.

That is what “grandma” did. She deliberately distracted the guards so others could take over the capital.

I am not without mercy. I am not saying throw her in jail and throw away the key. But I do think she deserves some prison time. One year in jail and 10 years probation seems like a merciful sentence to me.

That is very creative. You have thousands of people around the Capitol and Grandma distracted a policeman.

Gotta make a movie out of that one.

I'm glad, in my faith, that God is the judge and not you. (signature)

 

[Kenny]

If some of the police were actually inciting the insurrectionists then they should be punished even more severely than the insurrectionists. Absolutely.

I agree... but let me paint a scenario:

There is a red light (don't drive any further).
A policeman waves you through.
You cross over the red light and the waving of the policeman.
Another policeman stops you on the other side and gives you a ticket
You go to court and the judge says "guilty"

 

[sayak83]

That is very creative. You have thousands of people around the Capitol and Grandma distracted a policeman.

Gotta make a movie out of that one.

I'm glad, in my faith, that God is the judge and not you. (signature)

She was simply one of the many hundreds whose task was to distract the police. Maybe some police were colluding with them as well. The entire mob who planned this and if there were policemen, political staff and certainly Mr. Trump the ringleader...should be thrown in jail and given appropriate prison terms...to demonstrate what happens when you participate in an extremist mob that tries to sabotage a democracy.

Also I am confused. Who is expecting mercy from your God?

 

[sayak83]

I agree... but let me paint a scenario:

There is a red light (don't drive any further).
A policeman waves you through.
You cross over the red light and the waving of the policeman.
Another policeman stops you on the other side and gives you a ticket
You go to court and the judge says "guilty"

If you have any evidence that there was a miscarriage of justice, please put it to the relevant authorities. Just like the nonsensical claims if election tampering, you are making yet another claim with any cour rulings to back it up.

 

[fantome profane]

That is very creative. You have thousands of people around the Capitol and Grandma distracted a policeman.

Gotta make a movie out of that one.

I'm glad, in my faith, that God is the judge and not you. (signature)

Idaho Woman, 69, Gets Jail Time After 'Needlessly' Distracting Police on Jan. 6

“I’m sorry for this situation,” an officer replied, before telling Hemphill to take refuge near a gate.

Hemphill, however, did not take any refuge, and a subsequent video appeared to show her encouraging the crowd to press forward into the Capitol instead.

“Just come on in,” she can be heard yelling at the crowd. “It’s your house, whose house does it belong to?”

“You just come in, come on in, come on, have fun, you just come in, it’s all you do,” she is also heard saying. “This is your house. Your house!”

Nielsen, the prosecutor, said that these interactions were an attempt by Hemphill to draw police away from protecting the Capitol building as rioters pushed forward.

“When another [police] officer offered protection, she falsely stated she tried to calm down the crowd,” Nielsen said. “These are not the actions of a citizen journalist. These are the actions of a rioter.”

Hemphill, Nielsen said, “repeatedly asked the police for help while consistently undermining their efforts. She needlessly drew resources from the police at a time they were desperately needed.”

This woman was offered mercy, and she used that as an opportunity to encourage a violent insurrection. And still I would offer her mercy. But that doesn’t mean there are no consequences, and it certainly doesn’t mean she should be trusted.

 

[F1fan]

If you attack, yes, you should. Just as if you should get a speeding ticket if you exceed the speed limit.

My point was simply that Grandma really didn't "attack" the Capitol as policemen just waved people in. But, as mankind is, no mercy even as they attack God who is a God of mercy.

Policemen give mercy when they say "this is a warning". Revoltingest got it right when he said, "Probably just a fine" - a slap on the hand and "naughty, naughty Grandma"

She was healthy enough to show up to a protest based on a lie told by Trump, so she is healthy enough to pay the price.

In my faith, God is extending mercy every day.

Not to children suffering with genetic disorders and terminal illnesses, but I understand your need to ignore them as flaws in God's creation. So we thinkers see the dilemma your idealistic and unrealistic beliefs create.

So, as I said, how can we complain about God when we can't even extend mercy to a 69 year old Grandma?

It's a matter of challenging your beliefs that ignore realities for a more idealistic and comfortable illusion for you. Christians try to ignore that life can be hard, and we need to be accountable and responsible.

 

[Revoltingest]

She was healthy enough to show up to a protest based on a lie told by Trump, so she is healthy enough to pay the price.

The argument for letting her off appears to be...
Cancer
Old age
Female
Should sympathy for her being a "granny' be a get out of jail free card?
That would send the wrong message to the masses.