Throwing Pearls to Swine

[Shermana]

Is even attempting to argue what you believe is the truth about the Torah-obedient Jewish nature of Yeshu's message with non-believers, Pauline antinomians and orthodox Jews an exercise in "Throwing Pearls to swine" and "Casting what is sacred to dogs"? Is it a futile exercise to try to correct the vast sea of misunderstandings and straw men and misconceptions which pollute 99.99999% of the attempts at representations of Yeshua and his message?

Or are we obligated to try to at least make people aware of the facts of what we believe is the truth of Yeshu?

 

[Zardoz]

In my opinion, it's very difficult to overcome centuries of misconception and misunderstanding.

Just look at the topics concerning the nature of angels and Ha Satan that constantly arise, even here.

The Christian position of a revolt in heaven of angels and the standard Jewish position of angels having no free will are absolutely irreconcilable. So both groups use the same terminology and text, but the concepts and meaning behind these words are completely different. How can any agreement be reached in such a case? It's like one person saying the sky is blue but "blue" is pink for another.

Another example; the very concept of Original Sin is foreign to Jews but is the very cornerstone of why Christianity believes "Salvation" is mandatory. Same event, same text, but very different views of what it means.

There's no foundation to build on, the words used are the same but they may as well be from a different planet.

So when one tries to discuss Yeshua with other Jews, all those incompatible 'other' topics are in their minds, making presenting the actual Jewish message of Yeshua most difficult.

 

[Shermana]

Indeed, however, I am of the position that Angels have Free Will and that the Non-Free-Will idea is a much later Jewish idea, no matter how "standard" it is, and I think there's good reason to believe the ancient Jews circa 30 A.D. did not universally accept this idea, or even had this idea!

But on the doctrine of Original Sin, I believe that's a much later Christian development, and reflects more of the "Pauline" side. Which brings up another issue, how do we explain that Paul does not necessarily have to be a glued-on attachment? Or the "NT Canon"?

To me, it's not so much to try to explain these concepts. The problem is getting into roadblocks once you establish the facts that these particular concepts and doctrines are not necessarily as objective or concrete as one might want to think, even if they've become "Standardized".

So part of the issue is explaining that a lot of these traditions that have held through the centuries do not necessarily reflect what was considered objective truth back then, or is objective truth objectively.

But then again, the question is also whether people are interested in what is objective truth in the first place, and whether they are going to believe something is truth just because it's tradition. But then again, ALL doctrine comes into question.

So the next question is, with all these difficulties and snares and gordion knots, are we to proceed with debating and arguing for what we believe is the Truth of Yeshu, or are we to wait until we find someone who comes to us for our opinions without attempting to actually persuade them?

 

[Zardoz]

Of course there are many types of angels, and the highest named ones have something close to what we would recognize as a personality like ours. However, even if they are not mere robots doing what they are programmed, neither do they have the fully operational Free Will that humans have. Simply because they are not physical beings, but spiritual beings, and the Throne of Glory is never hidden from their sight as it is for us physical beings. With such a constant view, forgetfulness is impossible. Therefore all that is left would be willful rebellion.

I have yet to see valid, that is from Jewish Canon, example of angels rebelling against divine decree or their mission from the heavenly court. Even the guardian angel of Esau, wrestling and attempting to defeat Jacob, must leave his plan to be with the heavenly host to praise the Throne come morning.

I am fully against any form of preaching to or proselytizing Jews. I'm fully against J4J. If I live the teachings of Yeshua, they should come inquire of their own will.

 

[Shermana]

Well without debating about whether Angels willfully dance on pins, the question for me personally is, to what degree should we make an active effort to at least correct what we perceive as flaws, straw men, false assumptions, bad assertions, and illogical reasoning which lead to misinterpretations about Yeshu's teachings? (I.e. To what extent should we lock horns with everyone else?). I feel strangely compelled to attempt to intercept any and all perceived distortions and heretical theologies, particularly the most glaring enemy of the Faith, Antinomianism. (The Trinity and Canon issues run up a close second).

When it says "Go and make disciples of every nation", does that mean to attempt to persuade others, and not just Jews, of what Jesus actually taught? Should we be actively attempting to defeat the Pauline theology among those who already do accept Yeshua as the Moshiach? Or would that be to "render what is sacred to the dogs?"

 

[Zardoz]

...When it says "Go and make disciples of every nation", does that mean to attempt to persuade others, and not just Jews, of what Jesus actually taught? Should we be actively attempting to defeat the Pauline theology among those who already do accept Yeshua as the Moshiach? Or would that be to "render what is sacred to the dogs?"

No, Pauline theology is too firmly in control. There is no fixing it, because the foundation of it is too strong. Nor should it be fixed, for I believe that it is Edom's path. No such path could exist if it were not in the will of heaven. Destroy this path for those for whom it was made, it would be to destroy their path altogether, they would not accept a new one.

Best to make a new path, a Jewish path, with as little of the Pauline/Roman corruption as possible. That is what I hope for the Ebionite movement, a rebirth in Jewish terms of understanding of Yeshua's message.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

...Angels have Free Will and ...the Non-Free-Will idea is a much later Jewish idea, no matter how "standard" it is, and I think there's good reason to believe the ancient Jews circa 30 A.D. did not universally accept this idea, or even had this idea!

Is this a "pearl"? It doesn't seem to me to be a doctrine to part company over.

But on the doctrine of Original Sin, I believe that's a much later Christian development, and reflects more of the "Pauline" side.

...and? Is this important?

...Paul..."NT Canon"?

It seems to me, that what one considers "canonical" only becomes an issue when one uses the canon to fire cannister.

To me, it's not so much to try to explain these concepts. The problem is getting into roadblocks once you establish the facts that these particular concepts and doctrines are not necessarily as objective or concrete as one might want to think, even if they've become "Standardized"...

Shermana,

I haven't yet found anyone who agrees with me about most of what I have studies. God doesn't accept or reject people, based on whether they accept or reject Paul. If He doesn't, neither should you. If you hold Paul to be a false prophet, though, I would probably stop interacting with you -- it seems like so much ado about nothing. Jesus is our yardstick: those he accepts, I accept.

 

[Shermana]

God doesn't accept or reject people, based on whether they accept or reject Paul.

Oh and when He did he tell you this?

 

[anotherglenda]

No, Pauline theology is too firmly in control. There is no fixing it, because the foundation of it is too strong. Nor should it be fixed, for I believe that it is Edom's path. No such path could exist if it were not in the will of heaven. Destroy this path for those for whom it was made, it would be to destroy their path altogether, they would not accept a new one.

Best to make a new path, a Jewish path, with as little of the Pauline/Roman corruption as possible. That is what I hope for the Ebionite movement, a rebirth in Jewish terms of understanding of Yeshua's message.

God has no limitations and is merciful and grants opportunities and choices. Please don't give up on those currently blindly suffering errancy on the Pauline path. At one stage I was one of them.

God can be found in deep darkness. EX 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

My time of thickest darkness was fairly young widowhood. I sought aid for myself and children in Xian churches and they disdained and rejected me and my children while offering empty polite words 'God will look after you'.
JAS 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
JAS 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world

In prayer I pleaded for God to help and I read the bible & recognised how Jesus and his followers promoted mercy and help to widows and the fatherless while Paul promoted avoiding or rejecting them. The differences between the teachings could not be reconciled. I rejected Paul & I turned totally to Jesus & his God and life totally changed. God promotes helping others and also promotes the taste test ... 'just giving it a try' PS 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
God proved to me that He is truth and can be totally trusted always.

It's a painful slow process to recognise previous errancy and repent at each awful discovery and change and then slowly mellow. To begin with there is anger at recognising lies pushed on us since birth and also there is anger and overwhelming shame at self for allowing oneself to be hoodwinked and behaving ap-paul-ingly ie lawlessly/wickedly.

There is always incredible gratitude and stunned shock that God could even consider bothering to show us our errancy and promote improvement
ACTS 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

& beneficially living by His instruction for our good & the good of all. DEUT 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Scripture often likens people to trees. It takes a while for trees to produce edible fruit (Lev 19:23). Until mellowness happens after a few years, fruit is harsh & gives people a belly-ache. I'm older now and my children have grown and given me grandchildren. I have mellowed and am no longer angry, but can now see how God allows liars to ensure we have choices and Paul was prophesied of in both the OT and NT. God always places life and death before us ... from Eden til now and beyond.

When Xians encounter thick darkness and consider the path of change, it's very important that they find peaceable people on the path they are considering ... even to know they are not alone in their considerations. That's vital. Please don't give up on God's unlimited abilities to induce change and His choice to use you in the process and truths you have to offer which He bountifully overflows from you for the benefit of yourself and others.
please tell me and forgive me if I'm out of line and I will sincerely apologise and repent
peace to you

 

[Knight of Albion]

Is even attempting to argue what you believe is the truth about the Torah-obedient Jewish nature of Yeshu's message with non-believers, Pauline antinomians and orthodox Jews an exercise in "Throwing Pearls to swine" and "Casting what is sacred to dogs"? Is it a futile exercise to try to correct the vast sea of misunderstandings and straw men and misconceptions which pollute 99.99999% of the attempts at representations of Yeshua and his message?

Or are we obligated to try to at least make people aware of the facts of what we believe is the truth of Yeshu?

That's a very interesting and thought-provoking question.

Pearls = wisdom
Swine = people of low consciousness

For example, if you have a JW turn up on your doorstep you could argue with him till you're blue in the face that there is life after death and not a long sleep till 'Judgement Day', but if he was able to accept such a notion then very simply he wouldn't be a JW.

Similarly you could expound the Law of Love or the unity of all life or various other of the great truths of Christ Consciousness, but if people are not ready to receive them, your words will fall on deaf ears. Moreover they may indeed be 'trampled underfoot' i.e. be met with abuse and ridicule.

So to that extent the admonition is true.

However, one could make the counter-argument that with most spiritual teaching you are playing what we in England would call 'the long game'. i.e. they may not be ready for it just yet but you have planted a seed for the future which one day will germinate, take root, grow and flower.

My opinion is that it serves the greater good and 'the Great Plan of Creation' to disseminate these beautiful spiritual truths in the hope, in the knowledge, that one day, individually and collectively, humanity will acknowledge, embrace and live by them. And that that is what we are duty bound to do.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Is even attempting to argue what you believe is the truth about the Torah-obedient Jewish nature of Yeshu's message with non-believers, Pauline antinomians and orthodox Jews an exercise in "Throwing Pearls to swine" and "Casting what is sacred to dogs"? Is it a futile exercise to try to correct the vast sea of misunderstandings and straw men and misconceptions which pollute 99.99999% of the attempts at representations of Yeshua and his message?

Or are we obligated to try to at least make people aware of the facts of what we believe is the truth of Yeshu?

1. Pearls before swine could more easily be doing stupid things like witnessing to people while they're drunk or high.

2. The people here know and love God's Word--it seems like--and want to discuss the issues. They represent world-shakers and leaders, just as Paul did before his conversion--and then look!

3. Come here with a grain of salt, teach, disciple and learn--but no, I wouldn't expect to see a lot of people here at RForums overall to convert. Go to a foreign land on a missions trip outside the West if you crave open-minded souls.