Time - Change the word from sound to time

[Curious George]

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

No, this is not incorrect. Time can be framed in such a way that if space is defined as the distance between two points then time could be defined as a measurement of distance traveled- in other words change.

But I do not think that it is entirely helpful to frame it in such a way for your line of thinking. It might be helpful to just frame it as the distance between two points.

Understanding time is a very important concept. And we do not have a full understanding of time. But, something tells me you already knew that.
If you haven't read it already you might find these two links interesting:
Classical time

20th century time

There is a quote from St. Augustine in the first:

What then is time? If no one asks of me, I know; if I wish to explain to him who asks, I know not.

Regarding where this topic best fits, I would suggest the forum "science and religion."

Cheers

 

[ChristineM]

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

1a) I do not think so but the belief could change.

2) How would it be measured?

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

4) Same questions about mathematical and space-time, if there was no living creature, would those exist?

5) IF, time created at the BB, how was it measured and by what methods?

6) If time was not created at the moment of the BB, what, if any, effect would it have on distances traveled by all components in the “explosion” or, rapid expansion if you prefer?

7) Again, hypothetically, what effects would it have on the creation of the universe if time was not created at the same instant? Or can that even be determined?

1) Before life existed in the early universe time passed in big chunks, after life ends time will continue

2) by decay, the decay of the universe... Entropy

3) correct that is incorrect.

4) yes

5) why need it be measured? The was no one to measure it yet particles merged to make hydrogen and the rest is history

6) hypothetically.. What? The question makes no sense, either the bb would instantly end the universe or the bb would hang without progressing through time.

7) see 6

 

[Milton Platt]

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

1a) I do not think so but the belief could change.

2) How would it be measured?

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

4) Same questions about mathematical and space-time, if there was no living creature, would those exist?

5) IF, time created at the BB, how was it measured and by what methods?

6) If time was not created at the moment of the BB, what, if any, effect would it have on distances traveled by all components in the “explosion” or, rapid expansion if you prefer?

7) Again, hypothetically, what effects would it have on the creation of the universe if time was not created at the same instant? Or can that even be determined?

Of course....time does not depend upon there being someone to measure it. Just because it isn't measured does not preclude it's existence. It was not measured for billions of years before humans began to do so.

The current measurement of time began at the BB, and there was no one to measure it until billions of years later. All measurements are man made.

I do not see how time as we know it did not begin with the BB, since existence is contingent on time,and all that we know began to exist (or at least the foundation of all hat we know) at the BB.

 

[Ted Evans]

Well, technically biological evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe,

Can you explain to me, in simple English terms, how you can have biological evolution if the universe has not been created before?

 

[Grandliseur]

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

1a) I do not think so but the belief could change.

2) How would it be measured?

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

4) Same questions about mathematical and space-time, if there was no living creature, would those exist?

5) IF, time created at the BB, how was it measured and by what methods?

6) If time was not created at the moment of the BB, what, if any, effect would it have on distances traveled by all components in the “explosion” or, rapid expansion if you prefer?

7) Again, hypothetically, what effects would it have on the creation of the universe if time was not created at the same instant? Or can that even be determined?

Since I am Christian, I'll answer as that first. The only conscious mind that is needed is God, and his heavenly Christ, as minders of the universe and its progress. As we are told about Christ, ". . .and upholding all things by the word of his power . . ."

This then is the only life that is needed for things to progress as desired, time and space vice.
------------
If you are atheist and is asking this, consider how we arrived billions of years later without a living soul in the universe without either bacteria, fish, or human - and only now after we exist and can think about this philosophically realize that time and space exist. Clearly then, time and space need no kind of life in this universe to progress. It is kind of like the tree that falls in the forest, whether someone is there or not, it falls and makes a noise whether there is someone to hear it or not.

Time and space changes according to the gravity it is measured in. It matters not if none can measure it or not; it still conforms to its mathematical properties: the physics of our universe.

I believe that physicists still cannot account for the mathematics of the extreme early time of the postulated BB. They don't even know why it didn't cancel itself out. It is just their best attempt at explaining things, and as of yet, it isn't accounting for much.

 

[Ricktheheretic]

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

1a) I do not think so but the belief could change.

2) How would it be measured?

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

4) Same questions about mathematical and space-time, if there was no living creature, would those exist?

5) IF, time created at the BB, how was it measured and by what methods?

6) If time was not created at the moment of the BB, what, if any, effect would it have on distances traveled by all components in the “explosion” or, rapid expansion if you prefer?

7) Again, hypothetically, what effects would it have on the creation of the universe if time was not created at the same instant? Or can that even be determined?

If the BB happened then there was a time when it happened. If the BB happened then there must have a been a time before it happened. Matter cannot be created or destroyed? Isn't that a law of physics? Space, matter and time couldn't of come out of no-where, so there had to be a time that was before the BB.

 

[Polymath257]

If the BB happened then there was a time when it happened. If the BB happened then there must have a been a time before it happened. Matter cannot be created or destroyed? Isn't that a law of physics? Space, matter and time couldn't of come out of no-where, so there had to be a time that was before the BB.

No, there does NOT have to be a time before the BB, nor even a time *of* the BB. In fact, that is part of what the term 'singularity' means in this context: that even defining time at or before is impossible: the time coordinate simply cannot be extended backwards further.

A good analogy is latitude on the Earth. It cannot be extended to either north of the North Pole nor to south of the South Pole. The reason is the geometry of the sphere of the Earth. In the same way, spacetime has a four dimensional geometry where (at least in general relativity), the time cannot be extended backwards from or even to the singularity.

The conservation of matter (the correct version is actually the conservation of energy, because matter can be converted into energy) actually says that the total amount at one time is the same as the total amount at any other time. In other words, it compares the amount at two different times. If there is no time, there is nothing to compare.

 

[Ponder This]

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

1a) I do not think so but the belief could change.

2) How would it be measured?

3) I believe I read that time is a measurement of a distance traveled, is that incorrect?

4) Same questions about mathematical and space-time, if there was no living creature, would those exist?

5) IF, time created at the BB, how was it measured and by what methods?

6) If time was not created at the moment of the BB, what, if any, effect would it have on distances traveled by all components in the “explosion” or, rapid expansion if you prefer?

7) Again, hypothetically, what effects would it have on the creation of the universe if time was not created at the same instant? Or can that even be determined?

It seems that cosmologists are able to measure lengths of time since the Big Bang despite their agreement that nothing was alive at that time. So it would seem that time passed even though no living creatures existed yet.

 

[ChristineM]

Since I am Christian, I'll answer as that first. The only conscious mind that is needed is God, and his heavenly Christ, as minders of the universe and its progress. As we are told about Christ, ". . .and upholding all things by the word of his power . . ."

This then is the only life that is needed for things to progress as desired, time and space vice.
------------
If you are atheist and is asking this, consider how we arrived billions of years later without a living soul in the universe without either bacteria, fish, or human - and only now after we exist and can think about this philosophically realize that time and space exist. Clearly then, time and space need no kind of life in this universe to progress. It is kind of like the tree that falls in the forest, whether someone is there or not, it falls and makes a noise whether there is someone to hear it or not.

Time and space changes according to the gravity it is measured in. It matters not if none can measure it or not; it still conforms to its mathematical properties: the physics of our universe.

I believe that physicists still cannot account for the mathematics of the extreme early time of the postulated BB. They don't even know why it didn't cancel itself out. It is just their best attempt at explaining things, and as of yet, it isn't accounting for much.

Cosmologists do know considerably far back to the bb, 10e-34 of a second after the event and are working toward 10e-42. Fyi, 10e-34 of a second is trillions of times less time than the fastest single clock tick of the fastest computer devised to date.
See Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia for basic information.

Also note
A large enough clump of matter will collapse to form a black hole, but ONLY if it is surrounded by (relatively) empty space. During the Big Bang, there WAS NO empty space: ALL of space was filled more or less uniformly with matter and energy; there was no "center of attraction" around which matter could coalesce. Under these circumstances, a cosmic-scale black hole will not form.
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#e3

So yes, science knows why the early universe didn't cancel itself out... And now, so do you.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

@Ted Evans - it's my opinion that this observation/response basically puts the cork back in the bottle that the thread opened. In respect to the light from stars:

Without us, the changes and time would still be there, but no measurements of such would happen. In fact, those changes *did* happen long before us.

This is the perfect item to display the existence of the abstract "time" before any Earth beings' existence. The fact that we know that light from the stars can take thousands to millions to billions (etc.) of years to reach us, and, seeing actual change in that light (for instance a star going super-nova: Keplers' Supernova) we can infer that things were happening out in those great distances as long ago as the star is far away from us.

The most distant visible objects are on the order of tens of billions of light years away, and with the estimate for Earth's age being on the order of 4-5 billion years, witnessing light from an object at the 5 billion + light year mark tells us that the object being witnessed likely existed before the Earth did (somewhat dependent on rate of expansion/separation of that object and Earth), and the light reaching us now is around that old, and has been traveling for that long. Meaning that the change in this light's distance from Earth has been decreasing for around 5 billion years, hence time was in play regardless what was going on with Earth/life here/etc.

 

[Ted Evans]

This is the perfect item to display the existence of the abstract "time" before any Earth beings' existence. The fact that we know that light from the stars can take thousands to millions to billions (etc.) of years to reach us,

Are you not ignoring one important specific in the OP?

1) Hypothetically, IF, there was a universe without any living creature, would there be time?

The "hypothetical" was at creation and forever, no living intelligent creature. IOW, what unit of measurement would be used, seconds, minutes, hours, days, years? Is "time" as we measure it not calculated on the earth's rotation around the sun? I do not see how it is possible to have time if there is not an instrument to measure it and intelligence to interpret the reading, do you? How often does Einstien mention clocks and measurements when speaking of time.

Therefore, in theory, the entire universe could be in place before earth began its rotation around the sun which began man's basis for the measurement of time. At that time, would there be stars trillions(?) of miles from earth which the distance would be measured in "light years" from earth, by our standard for measuring time?

Here is a quote from one phys.org

"But some researchers theorize that this Newtonian idea of time as an absolute quantity that flows on its own, along with the idea that time is the fourth dimension of spacetime, are incorrect.

As I said, just a theory, but then there are many scientific "theories" on this subject also.

 

[Ted Evans]

It seems that cosmologists are able to measure lengths of time since the Big Bang despite their agreement that nothing was alive at that time. So it would seem that time passed even though no living creatures existed yet.

I would ask that you closely read #1) in my post.

 

[Polymath257]

Are you not ignoring one important specific in the OP?



The "hypothetical" was at creation and forever, no living intelligent creature. IOW, what unit of measurement would be used, seconds, minutes, hours, days, years? Is "time" as we measure it not calculated on the earth's rotation around the sun? I do not see how it is possible to have time if there is not an instrument to measure it and intelligence to interpret the reading, do you? How often does Einstien mention clocks and measurements when speaking of time.

The rotation of the Earth was the standard for the definition of time for a long time, but it is no longer. Now, we use the number of vibrations for a particular emission from a Cesium atom:
Second - Wikipedia

But, and this is important, that concept of 'second' is easily correlated with other changes and we can use *those* changes to determine time intervals in the past.

Therefore, in theory, the entire universe could be in place before earth began its rotation around the sun which began man's basis for the measurement of time. At that time, would there be stars trillions(?) of miles from earth which the distance would be measured in "light years" from earth, by our standard for measuring time?

Yes, much of the universe was 'in place' (well, actually it was dynamic, but..) well before the Earth was formed. And yes, there would have been stars that would have been light-years away from the Earth at that point. But we would use the *modern* year for the time measurements and the *modern* definition of second (and year).
BTW, a light-year is about 6 *quadrillion* miles. A mere trillion miles would be .000166 light years.

"But some researchers theorize that this Newtonian idea of time as an absolute quantity that flows on its own, along with the idea that time is the fourth dimension of spacetime, are incorrect.

Um, the concept of 'absolute time' went out with Einstein over 100 years ago.

As I said, just a theory, but then there are many scientific "theories" on this subject also.

Give an example of a modern theory that doesn't have time as one of the relevant dimensions.

 

[Polymath257]

I would ask that you closely read #1) in my post.

And the answer is that there would be time. It just wouldn't be measured by anyone.

 

[Ted Evans]

In BB theory we are part of the universe, so that does not happen.

Did I say anything about it "happening" or did I specifically say, "hypothetically"?

It appears to me that you are suggesting with your assertion that "we are part of the universe" that people were there when the universe came into existence, is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Ted Evans]

2)It would be measured as it is today by the the amount of change. It would take an intelligence to understand the measurement but the measurement would still exist.

Before man, what instrument would be used to make the measurement? Without a measurement, what proof do you have that time was there and what would the time unit be based on before the earth came into existence?

 

[Polymath257]

Did I say anything about it "happening" or did I specifically say, "hypothetically"?

It appears to me that you are suggesting with your assertion that "we are part of the universe" that people were there when the universe came into existence, is that what you are suggesting?

I was sort of curious about that myself.

The universe existed LONG before there were humans around to measure it. It was around LONG before there were living things.

So, your hypothetical was the *actual* not all that long ago on the cosmic timescale. And yes, time existed then but wasn't measured by anyone.

 

[Polymath257]

Before man, what instrument would be used to make the measurement? Without a measurement, what proof do you have that time was there and what would the time unit be based on before the earth came into existence?

We would still use a 'second'. We could even use a 'day' as a time measurement. Or a 'year'. Those are all defined as a certain time interval *now*, but the same time interval in the past would still be called a 'second', a 'day' or a 'year' even if the Earth, Cesium atoms, or the sun didn't exist.

Is this a difficult concept for you?

 

[Polymath257]

Before man, what instrument would be used to make the measurement? Without a measurement, what proof do you have that time was there and what would the time unit be based on before the earth came into existence?

Let me give an example.

Since light takes time to travel (the speed of light is finite), the light we get from distant galaxies started out in the past. Now, other galaxies are far enough away that the light has taken millions of years to get to us (except for a few very close ones). Even the Andromeda Spiral galaxy (which is *very* close to us on a cosmic scale) is far enough away that light has taken about 2.5 million years to get to us.

Now, I can assure you that there were no humans around 2.5 million years ago when that light started out.

Now, we see this light today that had started out 2.5 million years ago. What do we see? We see events that happened 2.5 million years ago! And guess what? We can measure the time intervals between events that happened 2.5 million years ago in the Andromeda Spiral galaxy.

So, we know that time existed back then, before there were humans.

But we can go farther away. There are galaxies we can see that are over 5 billion light years away. For those galaxies, the Earth had not formed when the light started out from those galaxies. But we can *still* measure *today* the time intervals for when that light gets to us and thereby the time intervals for events that happened over 5 billion years ago.

And, notice, we can still use seconds, days, and years to measure those time intervals.

 

[Ted Evans]

So basically, in a nut shell, what you are claiming is that unless time is measured, it cannot exist?

No, that is not what I claimed, I said that I did not think so with the hypothetical that I described, but that thought might change. First, I would like to know what the standard of measurement would be used without earth, intelligence. When you say X number of light years, OK, I understand that is the speed of light and how for it travels, so what determines the years?