Time To Become Independent Of China.....

[Father Heathen]

So it is OK to be racist when it comes to Han Chinese?
The USA has got this wierd thing about communism, in all its forms.
Though what passes for communism in China. Is a total hybrid form between capitalism and communism. However it is as totalitarian as Trump would like to be.

I take it any investments he has there, are doing rather better than most of his western ones.

It would seem to be reasonable for the Chinese to want parity of power with the USA.
They have at least as many trade interests.

Bogeyman communism or not, what about their horrendous history regarding human rights? Can't really play the race card to handwave that away.

 

[Stevicus]

Aye, there have been problems.
But it's not just the capitalists.
Our socialist citizens love to buy products straight from Chinese companies.

Yeah, but they're living in a capitalist society. And in a lot of cases, there really isn't any choice. A lot of items aren't even made in the United States anymore. We've really put ourselves in a rather vulnerable spot.

I remember having arguments with people about our trade policies back 20-30 years ago. It wasn't always about China, but I think people were in a state of some kind of euphoric delusion after the fall of the USSR and end of the Cold War that we threw caution to the four winds. Perot recognized it back then, but he was dismissed as some kind of "kook." On the liberal side, Jerry Brown and Ralph Nader warned against it, and they were dismissed as "kooks."

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, but they're living in a capitalist society. And in a lot of cases, there really isn't any choice. A lot of items aren't even made in the United States anymore. We've really put ourselves in a rather vulnerable spot.

I remember having arguments with people about our trade policies back 20-30 years ago. It wasn't always about China, but I think people were in a state of some kind of euphoric delusion after the fall of the USSR and end of the Cold War that we threw caution to the four winds. Perot recognized it back then, but he was dismissed as some kind of "kook." On the liberal side, Jerry Brown and Ralph Nader warned against it, and they were dismissed as "kooks."

I don't see the reason for focusing upon capitalism.
It's about sourcing critical products from reliably friendly sources
in the interest of national security. We should be more immune
to their cutting off needed products, & also to avoid their having
back doors into sensitive electronics.

 

[Stevicus]

I don't see the reason for focusing upon capitalism.
It's about sourcing critical products from reliably friendly sources
in the interest of national security. We should be more immune
to their cutting off needed products, & also to avoid their having
back doors into sensitive electronics.

Well, it's just that capitalists always seem to be looking to cut corners and find cheaper labor wherever it may be. It's because they want instant gratification and that immediate profit, regardless of the risks and potential consequences (some of which we're seeing now, as noted in your OP).

"Reliably friendly sources" - that's the tricky part. Stability is also a factor, since we once viewed Iran as a reliably friendly source, but in 1979, that all changed overnight. Foreign relations can be fickle and subject to change at any time.

 

[Left Coast]

.....for any critical products. Of course, we should still be able
to buy unimportant products from them, eg, bathrobes, pencils,
rubber duckies.
It's a relatively national security measure to limit strategic items
to be sourced domestically & from reliable allies.
‘Play dirty’: Chinese official threatens US medical supplies over Huawei fight

Some might say the Chinese cannot be trusted. I'd never
say such a thing. The can be trusted to behave this way.

Before you-know-who arrives to call this racist, it is about
the government of that country acting against our interest.
It is not about the race of most people in China.
(Yes, there are people other than Han Chinese.)

Rev, stop making so much sense immediately please. I don't like this side of you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There will be deleterious repercussions.
We must balance national security with economic loss.

Its not like we don't use soybeans for ourselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it's just that capitalists always seem to be looking to cut corners and find cheaper labor wherever it may be. It's because they want instant gratification and that immediate profit, regardless of the risks and potential consequences (some of which we're seeing now, as noted in your OP).

"Reliably friendly sources" - that's the tricky part. Stability is also a factor, since we once viewed Iran as a reliably friendly source, but in 1979, that all changed overnight. Foreign relations can be fickle and subject to change at any time.

I think we can find friendlier allies than Iran was/is.

 

[Revoltingest]

Rev, stop making so much sense immediately please. I don't like this side of you.

Bickle upherzoon liebchen pid gorsha!

 

[Revoltingest]

Its not like we don't use soybeans for ourselves.

Markets will adjust.

 

[tytlyf]

I disagree. China is not our enemy.
I do recall recently Trump begging China's President Xi to help him win the election.

 

[Tambourine]

Being dependent on a foreign power's goodwill, not having your government in control of its own resources, having all your electronics and data laced with overseas spyware - those are the experiences of people from most other countries when dealing with the US.

So, I can't help find it somewhat amusing that Americans are now panicking as they are faced with a milder, less threatening version of the same situation that most of the world has been dealing with for decades.


Market Giveth, Market Taketh.

 

[Stevicus]

I think we can find friendlier allies than Iran was/is.

Well, Iran was just one example. There are a few countries we might be able to count on, even despite Trump's antics which offend some of our allies. But realistically, there aren't that many.

 

[Left Coast]

Bickle upherzoon liebchen pid gorsha!

Oh thank god. The universe is right again.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, Iran was just one example. There are a few countries we might be able to count on, even despite Trump's antics which offend some of our allies. But realistically, there aren't that many.

I'm sure we could manage.
Besides, he's soon to be replaced.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Pay maybe dollar more on general goods made in the USA and watch the Renaissance for our country reborn again.

It would be a lot higher than the odd dollar. The. Landed price of Chinese goods is far lower than the production price IN the USA. And the companies will want to maintain their margins, whoever makes them. You can expect between a %50 & %100 price hike.
Retail.
Inflation will go through the roof, as will cost of living.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Bogeyman communism or not, what about their horrendous history regarding human rights? Can't really play the race card to handwave that away.

Their human rights issues have been much the same since the days of the emperors It has nothing to do with communism. Nor has it anything to do with trade, or their status as a world power.
The USA will have little effect on Chinese internal policy whatever they do.
Historically China has had a top down power structure, and it is no different now.

You can be certain that the leadership will prioritize the benefit to China as a whole when formulating policy and laws. Rather than that of the individual. That has been so since for ever.

However provided individuals prioritize China in their decision-making they can do very well indeed and become super rich. However they always remain subservient to the state.

Much like the concept of America first.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don't see the reason for focusing upon capitalism.
It's about sourcing critical products from reliably friendly sources
in the interest of national security. We should be more immune
to their cutting off needed products, & also to avoid their having
back doors into sensitive electronics.

Their history as trade partners has been second to none when it comes to reliability, it is far better than that of the USA.

FEAR of back doors in software and firmware is just that, fear.
Such back doors are as likely to be found in American Products as in Chinese ones, no intentional ones have been found.
Criminal exploitation of such weaknesses is all to common. And I am sure that both the UK and the USA security services are doing all they can to exploit such flaws themselves
It would be strange indeed if China was not doing likewise.

But that is of no particular or unusual concern. Or reason not to trade.

I am sure all the Western powers are making considerable efforts to crack each others systems. I would doubt that the USA has had any greater success keeping out the UK's security services than those of China or Russia or India. Perhaps the USA fears that it is falling behind in it's own efforts.

 

[Father Heathen]

Their human rights issues have been much the same since the days of the emperors It has nothing to do with communism. Nor has it anything to do with trade, or their status as a world power.
The USA will have little effect on Chinese internal policy whatever they do.
Historically China has had a top down power structure, and it is no different now.

You can be certain that the leadership will prioritize the benefit to China as a whole when formulating policy and laws. Rather than that of the individual. That has been so since for ever.

However provided individuals prioritize China in their decision-making they can do very well indeed and become super rich. However they always remain subservient to the state.

Much like the concept of America first.

My point what that their horrible human rights abuses is a completely just and valid reason to denounce their government, communism and trade aside. It's not "racism" to frown upon sociopathy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

My point what that their horrible human rights abuses is a completely just and valid reason to denounce their government, communism and trade aside. It's not "racism" to frown upon sociopathy.

It is a problem of different cultures.

The west thinks the Chines attitude to Personal civil rights is totally unjustified, because the West are coming from the point of view of the individual as being the primary unit.

The Chinese are coming from the position of believing that the Chinese people collectively are of the primary concern. With the individual as only of concern. as part of the whole.

Both systems work reasonably well with in their own limits.

The American system Differs from the European in as much as it only give lip service to Individual rights and equality. In practice it treats those it sees as inferior extremely badly. a As seen in the handling of the Corona virus and the high death rate, and the police disregard of the rights of Blacks, and the vast number of small time criminals in prison for life... It also sees the right to own arms as superior to the right of life. While is has probably the most advanced health care in the world it is one of the least evenly available and the cause of extremes of poverty.

China Treats those that seek to go against the authority of the state, like the Yugurs or the protestors in Hong Kong, with all the necessary force of law to maintain the status quo. the West sees these a human rights issues. The Chinese see them as attacks on the state.

America Treats Communists or socialists as an underclass and even Anti-American. quite contrary to the proclaimed equality ethos in the constitution.
This is a fall out from McCarthyism which is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence.
An equal lack of evidence is shown in the suspicion shown by the authorities toward Chinese companies today. it is a product of fear and lack of confidence.

 

[Revoltingest]

Their history as trade partners has been second to none when it comes to reliability, it is far better than that of the USA.

People I know who've done business there would disagree.
But that isn't the OP's issue.

Setting aside difficulties due to Trump, a situation which will
change next year, we still face a country which is greatly
ramping up a fell military. They've taken Tibet, the South
China Sea, & they're eyeing Taiwan. Other countries were
once part of China, & would be next on the menu.

Right or wrong, Ameristan has a long history of military
foreign adventurism with both major political parties.
I don't see this going away. So the probability of conflict
with China is increasing. This should be planned for.

FEAR of back doors in software and firmware is just that, fear.

You have expertise in such matters, & believe this cannot happen?

Such back doors are as likely to be found in American Products as in Chinese ones......

Sins of Ameristanian companies are irrelevant to national security concerns.

....no intentional ones have been found.

So it cannot happen?

Criminal exploitation of such weaknesses is all to common. And I am sure that both the UK and the USA security services are doing all they can to exploit such flaws themselves
It would be strange indeed if China was not doing likewise.

I propose curbing some of our weaknesses.

But that is of no particular or unusual concern. Or reason not to trade.

I specifically said to continue trading.
But not for strategic/critical products.

I am sure all the Western powers are making considerable efforts to crack each others systems. I would doubt that the USA has had any greater success keeping out the UK's security services than those of China or Russia or India. Perhaps the USA fears that it is falling behind in it's own efforts.

I'm not privy to our efforts.