Time To Become Independent Of China.....

[Terrywoodenpic]

Sins of Ameristanian companies are irrelevant to national security concerns.

It is the weaknesses in commercial programs that give access to hackers of all kinds.
This is very much a national security issue.
It is far easier to strengthen code, than prevent hackers trying to gain entry.

So it cannot happen?

Of course it can but cutting trade will not prevent it.

I propose curbing some of our weaknesses.

As Above

I specifically said to continue trading.
But not for strategic/critical products.

It is often hard to draw a line between the two.
However the chances of war or conflict between countries, including the USA and China,
is reduced by the closeness of ties and inter related strengths and vulnerabilities.

I'm not privy to our efforts.

That is why I put it in the form of a supposition.
But if the USA and other countries are looking after their interests in the way they should,
it would be certain that they were doing all that the could to ascertain what each other was doing.
That is the only way to counter threats. it is why such intelligence facilities exist.

Setting aside difficulties due to Trump, a situation which will
change next year, we still face a country which is greatly
ramping up a fell military. They've taken Tibet, the South
China Sea, & they're eyeing Taiwan. Other countries were
once part of China, & would be next on the menu.

China is increasing its defensive capability to neutralise the efforts of the USA to dominate the waters around china.
In that China now dominates the entire area between China Guam and Australia, it is a pretty much done deal. China can now reach all those regions with precision guided missiles and drones.

It will of course take back all its previous territories in the same way that it took back Tibet.
However it is unlikely to go to war over them. as it will, in the fullness of time, be in their interests to return of their own accord.
Taiwan has never ceased being Chinese territory.
Of more concern is Hong Kong. which is an important world trading post. But that too will inevitably become fully integrated with the rest of China, as was part of the long term agreement with the UK.

 

[esmith]

@Revoltingest reference you first line to my Paul post.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Their history as trade partners has been second to none when it comes to reliability, it is far better than that of the USA.

People I know who've done business there would disagree.

The recent imposition of tariffs by Trump on "friendly" nations including the UK. show just how unreliable the USA is as a trading partner.
Also the imposition of ban on what and with whom we can trade, and the associated threats. have sent most western countries looking for trade alternatives.
This can only be to the disadvantage of the USA from now on.
It is simply not safe nor economically viable for other countries to have to rely on American technology, as it can be cut off at the whim of a president.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is the weaknesses in commercial programs that give access to hackers of all kinds.....
It is far easier to strengthen code, than prevent hackers trying to gain entry.

Makes sense to me.

Of course it can but cutting trade will not prevent it.

Think of prevention as something worth doing, even
if it's imperfect. Remember that I'm not about purity.

It is often hard to draw a line between the two.
However the chances of war or conflict between countries, including the USA and China,
is reduced by the closeness of ties and inter related strengths and vulnerabilities.


That is why I put it in the form of a supposition.
But if the USA and other countries are looking after their interests in the way they should,
it would be certain that they were doing all that the could to ascertain what each other was doing.
That is the only way to counter threats. it is why such intelligence facilities exist.

If we're fortunate, China will limit its conquest of the region,
& Ameristan will avoid war.

 

[Revoltingest]

Their history as trade partners has been second to none when it comes to reliability, it is far better than that of the USA.

A dubious claim.
But what relevance does it have to the OP's addressing security?

The recent imposition of tariffs by Trump on "friendly" nations including the UK. show just how unreliable the USA is as a trading partner.
Also the imposition of ban on what and with whom we can trade, and the associated threats. have sent most western countries looking for trade alternatives.
This can only be to the disadvantage of the USA from now on.
It is simply not safe nor economically viable for other countries to have to rely on American technology, as it can be cut off at the whim of a president.

I have criticism for our policies too.
But this thread is about our national security.

 

[Father Heathen]

It is a problem of different cultures.

The west thinks the Chines attitude to Personal civil rights is totally unjustified, because the West are coming from the point of view of the individual as being the primary unit.

The Chinese are coming from the position of believing that the Chinese people collectively are of the primary concern. With the individual as only of concern. as part of the whole.

Both systems work reasonably well with in their own limits.

The American system Differs from the European in as much as it only give lip service to Individual rights and equality. In practice it treats those it sees as inferior extremely badly. a As seen in the handling of the Corona virus and the high death rate, and the police disregard of the rights of Blacks, and the vast number of small time criminals in prison for life... It also sees the right to own arms as superior to the right of life. While is has probably the most advanced health care in the world it is one of the least evenly available and the cause of extremes of poverty.

China Treats those that seek to go against the authority of the state, like the Yugurs or the protestors in Hong Kong, with all the necessary force of law to maintain the status quo. the West sees these a human rights issues. The Chinese see them as attacks on the state.

America Treats Communists or socialists as an underclass and even Anti-American. quite contrary to the proclaimed equality ethos in the constitution.
This is a fall out from McCarthyism which is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence.
An equal lack of evidence is shown in the suspicion shown by the authorities toward Chinese companies today. it is a product of fear and lack of confidence.

No amount of mental gymnastics justifies tyranny and human rights abuses.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If we're fortunate, China will limit its conquest of the region,
& Ameristan will avoid war.

Unfortunately the American military machine needs wars and the threat of wars to keep its funding.
The Power and wealth of the Arms industry to influence policy makers should not be under estimated.
Nor should their determination to to preserve their profits by any means possible.
This includes provoking war, and spending as much is required on propaganda and fear mongering as necessary to achieve their aims.
China has been a blessing and highly provident whipping boy, now that there are few other major wars in prospect.
Were you able to follow the money, I would suggest the security and arms industry would prove to be the largest spenders instigating and promoting the anti-China diatribe.

China is not spending on developing offensive armaments and logistics.
It has almost no long range air craft, it has no deep sea fleet. it has very little in the way of landing craft. It has only one modern Aircraft carrier.
However it has massive defensive forces of all kinds in including guided and autonomous missiles.
Any war with China would be fought mainly over the Japanese and pacific Islands surrounding the south china sea.
Like Cuba was to the USA, Taiwan would be seen as a potential enemy staging post and would be neutralised immediately, were it not to surrender.
Japan would either become neutral and remove all bases from its territories. (all its bases are within rocket range of mainland china) the alternative is for China to totally erase them.

The Philippines under the leadership of president Duterte has made major strides to switch sides and draw up a 25 year military agreement with China.
Which would leave a big gap in the American influence in the islands circling the south china sea. and leave a wide shipping lane for Chinese war ships.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately the American military machine needs wars and the threat of wars to keep its funding.

The old Military Industrial Complex conspiracy theory again, eh.
Pish posh!
(Please excuse my profanity.)

When we enter wars, it's because the President & Congress
agree to do it. They represent the voters, who repeatedly vote
for those who've waged war before. GW Bush was re-elected
after starting 2 disastrous wars. Obama was re-elected for
continuing them. Hillary voted to start & continue the wars,
& was rewarded with winning the popular vote for Prez in 2016.
Biden will win in 2020, & he.....you get the picture.
As long as the voting public rewards leaders for war, we'll have them.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No amount of mental gymnastics justifies tyranny and human rights abuses.

From the Chinese perspective these claims are totally unfounded.
Before they can be countered, there needs to be a common language and understanding of the ethics supporting these claims. At the moment there is not even an agreement that any problem exists.
The likelihood of a solution, any time soon, is remote in the extreme.

How would you propose to resolve the situation?
Would you volunteer to go to war over it?
Do you suppose the USA could win such a war?
Is such a war even winnable?
Do you believe the USA could survive such a war in a viable way and retain its present status as a world power?
Who would be the beneficiaries' of such a war?
Would the other western nations Join such a war?
Who's side would Russia take?

The entire war scenario is unrealistic and un-supportable.

 

[esmith]

China is not spending on developing offensive armaments and logistics.
It has almost no long range air craft, it has no deep sea fleet. it has very little in the way of landing craft. It has only one modern Aircraft carrier.
However it has massive defensive forces of all kinds in including guided and autonomous missiles.
Any war with China would be fought mainly over the Japanese and pacific Islands surrounding the south china sea.
Like Cuba was to the USA, Taiwan would be seen as a potential enemy staging post and would be neutralised immediately, were it not to surrender.
Japan would either become neutral and remove all bases from its territories. (all its bases are within rocket range of mainland china) the alternative is for China to totally erase them.

I beg to differ with you. China is on the path to become a dominate military nation. I do not know where you get your information or data from but I suggest you do a little more research before making the statement "China is not spending on developing offensive armaments and logistics."
Reference the following facts present in the following article.
China’s Modernizing Military

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The old Military Industrial Complex conspiracy theory again, eh.
Pish posh!
(Please excuse my profanity.)

When we enter wars, it's because the President & Congress
agree to do it. They represent the voters, who repeatedly vote
for those who've waged war before. GW Bush was re-elected
after starting 2 disastrous wars. Obama was re-elected for
continuing them. Hillary voted to start & continue the wars,
& was rewarded with winning the popular vote for Prez in 2016.
Biden will win in 2020, & he.....you get the picture.
As long as the voting public rewards leaders for war, we'll have them.

You have support for wars for the same reason you have lynching's.
The American people do not lead they follow, the more they see the prospect of the down fall of their enemies
and the more blood in prospect, the more they will vote for it.
Over the last three years China has been the target of hate and conspiracy theories.
I do not believe in fairy tales nor coincidences.
This is being orchestrated.
Decide for yourself who has the most to gain from this.
It is certainly not the American people.

 

[Father Heathen]

From the Chinese perspective these claims are totally unfounded.
Before they can be countered, there needs to be a common language and understanding of the ethics supporting these claims. At the moment there is not even an agreement that any problem exists.
The likelihood of a solution, any time soon, is remote in the extreme.

How would you propose to resolve the situation?
Would you volunteer to go to war over it?
Do you suppose the USA could win such a war?
Is such a war even winnable?
Do you believe the USA could survive such a war in a viable way and retain its present status as a world power?
Who would be the beneficiaries' of such a war?
Would the other western nations Join such a war?
Who's side would Russia take?

The entire war scenario is unrealistic and un-supportable.

Would you use these justifications to excuse slavery? It was culturally accepted and those who owned slaves didn't consider it immoral, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a huge injustice and victimized innocent people.

Oppression, torture, false imprisonment, summary execution for petty or arbitrary crimes, "reeducation", murdering students and demonstrators, etc; these are horrible crimes and human rights abuses. That their culture and perspective condones these actions doesn't mean ****. Try to tap dance around that all you want.

Also, I never said anything about war, and I never said that the U.S. was perfect, nor that it's own crimes were excusable. The chinese government is ****, and that has nothing to do with race. That's as dumb as saying criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic. Governments don't represent races. They're not above reproach.

 

[Revoltingest]

You have support for wars for the same reason you have lynching's.

That is a very strange claim.
Do you think lynchings are that common here?
Is government behind them?

The American people do not lead they follow, the more they see the prospect of the down fall of their enemies
and the more blood in prospect, the more they will vote for it.
Over the last three years China has been the target of hate and conspiracy theories.
I do not believe in fairy tales nor coincidences.
This is being orchestrated.
Decide for yourself who has the most to gain from this.
It is certainly not the American people.

Your MIC is still a conspiracy theory based upon belief
rather than evidence. It's like religion, but with the MIC
playing the roll of Satan. All nicht einmal falsch.

My claim that voters drive war has strong correlation
between election results & foreign adventurism.
Voters have the control. They vote for war mongers.
Just look at the results of the last couple Democratic
primaries.
If they didn't want war, they'd vote differently.

 

[Father Heathen]

That is a very strange claim.
Do you think lynchings are that common here?

They still have milkmen in the UK, so their worldview might be slightly anachronistic.

 

[Revoltingest]

They still have milkmen in the UK, so their worldview might be slightly anachronistic.

And a state religion.

 

[Father Heathen]

And a state religion.

And a monarchy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I beg to differ with you. China is on the path to become a dominate military nation. I do not know where you get your information or data from but I suggest you do a little more research before making the statement "China is not spending on developing offensive armaments and logistics."
Reference the following facts present in the following article.
China’s Modernizing Military

That is all pretty old news now and well out of date. it give no details.
I suggest you look at the details. China has most certainly modernised its entire forces structure. but as I said it has a very limited long range ability.
It is largely designed to protect its interests in the South china sea and west pacific. It has nothing capable of engaging at long range or for engaging distant lands.

I suggest you read the South China morning post for a few months, it is A Hong Kong paper forbidden in China. To balance that you could add the reports from Breitbart. which give a fairly balanced western perspective.

There is no doubt at all that the situation is very serious. but largely as a response to the American interference on China's home turf.
For China to conduct a war against America, American forces would need to be within range. That is within an arc that includes Guam and comes close to the coast of Australia. If the USA maintains its distance, no war. But all the American bases from Guam to the Philippines are very vulnerable indeed and would be wiped out in the event of the USA attacking, as would any American warships in that region.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is all pretty old news now and well out of date. it give no details.
I suggest you look at the details. China has most certainly modernised its entire forces structure. but as I said it has a very limited long range ability.
It is largely designed to protect its interests in the South china sea and west pacific. It has nothing capable of engaging at long range or for engaging distant lands.

I suggest you read the South China morning post for a few months, it is A Hong Kong paper forbidden in China. To balance that you could add the reports from Breitbart. which give a fairly balanced western perspective.

There is no doubt at all that the situation is very serious. but largely as a response to the American interference on China's home turf.
For China to conduct a war against America, American forces would need to be within range. That is within an arc that includes Guam and comes close to the coast of Australia. If the USA maintains its distance, no war. But all the American bases from Guam to the Philippines are very vulnerable indeed and would be wiped out in the event of the USA attacking, as would any American warships in that region.

China is developing first strike weapons (eg, hypersonic missiles,
nuclear submarines) capable of hitting any target on the globe.
The continental US is within range.
What does this mean regarding this thread?
We should work on guarding national security.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That is a very strange claim.
Do you think lynchings are that common here?
Is government behind them?

Your MIC is still a conspiracy theory based upon belief
rather than evidence. It's like religion, but with the MIC
playing the roll of Satan. All nicht einmal falsch.

My claim that voters drive war has strong correlation
between election results & foreign adventurism.
Voters have the control. They vote for war mongers.
Just look at the results of the last couple Democratic
primaries.
If they didn't want war, they'd vote differently.

Lynching mentality is really quite common and prevalent today.
It is the cause of most rioting. It is never evidence based. it is driven by emotion and basic hatreds and fear.

The correlation you speak of is arbitrary. It has no evidence supported by cause and effect.
The Iraqi wars were certainly not driven or caused by public opinion. It took a lot of propaganda, lies and false intelligence reports to get up a sufficient6 head of steam , for the administration to get enough congressional support to do the deed.
The peoples support very soon went off the boil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lynching mentality is really quite common and prevalent today.
It is the cause of most rioting. It is never evidence based. it is driven by emotion and basic hatreds and fear.

I don't understand this.
Who's been lynched recently?
Are you blaming government or voters?

The correlation you speak of is arbitrary. It has no evidence supported by cause and effect.

"Arbitrary" doesn't mean what you think.

The Iraqi wars were certainly not driven or caused by public opinion. It took a lot of propaganda, lies and false intelligence reports to get up a sufficient6 head of steam , for the administration to get enough congressional support to do the deed.
The peoples support very soon went off the boil.

And yet, they continued re-electing leaders who pursued the wars,
eg, Obama. In his first campaign, he promised to end them.
After violating his promise, he won re-election handily.

You say there's no causation behind this correlation.
But you offer no evidence whatsoever for the MIC conspiracy
theory except that some people make money.
Who among them is controlling the President & Congress
to direct them to start & continually wage these wars?
Do you have any documentation of these directives to leaders?
If this conspiracy exists, why aren't Bush or Obama or any of
the members of Congress outing the conspiracy?
Surely there must be someone somewhere who feels shame
at starting wars because some defense contractor told them too.
It's like the claim of faked Moon landings....too many people
must be in on it for all to remain silent about the vast conspiracy.