Titanic tourist submersible: Search for missing vessel has covered over 10,000 square miles

[Revoltingest]

I don't get what you're saying here.

You introduced the fact that OceanGate is a corporation
(privately held). It's reasonable to infer criticism of business.
So I thought it useful to address the issue of engineering
design being a process of balancing competing goals
across all economic systems, including your favorite.

My assumption is based on weighing the likelihood of the two possibilities in light of other factors, such as the usage of a $30 controller in the submersible and the CEO's statement about not wanting to hire "50-year-old white guys" with military experience.

This is an example of judging based upon appearances
provided by news media. Do you have any cogent
reasoning to show that such a controller is inadequate?
I'd like an answer to this question.

I guess time will tell. Either way, the passengers are already dead, unfortunately, so any further investigation will only benefit future expeditions.

That's how it goes whenever an airplane crashes.
Every failure is an opportunity to prevent it from
happening again. Referring to a parallel issue,
the Titanic & liberty ships sinking resulted in
improving ship design & operating protocols.


You might not have expected this, but I've some
criticism of OceanGate's choices. It's in areas
not addressed in the news media, whose coverage
has been shallow & drama laden.
Consider....

OceanGate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I won't weigh in til the dust settles. (The article
is subject to revision as info improves.)

 

[Estro Felino]

Actually I think it would have been atrocious to know they died after a slow agony.
Fortunately they didn't suffer and they didn't realize.

 

[We Never Know]

Actually I think it would have been atrocious to know they died after a slow agony.
Fortunately they didn't suffer and they didn't realize.

Thats true. According to this guy it was superfast.

"When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500mph (2,414km/h) - that's 2,200ft (671m) per second, says Dave Corley, a former US nuclear submarine officer.
The time required for complete collapse is about one millisecond, or one thousandth of a second.
A human brain responds instinctually to a stimulus at about 25 milliseconds, Mr Corley says. Human rational response - from sensing to acting - is believed to be at best 150 milliseconds.
The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapours.
When the hull collapses, the air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion, Mr Corley says.
Human bodies incinerate and are turned to ash and dust instantly."

Titan sub implosion: What we know about catastrophic event - BBC News

The Titan submersible suffered a violent collapse inwards deep underwater in the North Atlantic.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually I think it would have been atrocious to know they died after a slow agony.
Fortunately they didn't suffer and they didn't realize.

Same here.
To die in a cramped coffin filled with bad air,
unable to stand or escape....I'd rather have
it be instantaneous.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You introduced the fact that OceanGate is a corporation
(privately held). It's reasonable to infer criticism of business.
So I thought it useful to address the issue of engineering
design being a process of balancing competing goals
across all economic systems, including your favorite.


This is an example of judging based upon appearances
provided by news media. Do you have any cogent
reasoning to show that such a controller is inadequate?
I'd like an answer to this question.

That's how it goes whenever an airplane crashes.
Every failure is an opportunity to prevent it from
happening again. Referring to a parallel issue,
the Titanic & liberty ships sinking resulted in
improving ship design & operating protocols.


You might not have expected this, but I've some
criticism of OceanGate's choices. It's in areas
not addressed in the news media, whose coverage
has been shallow & drama laden.
Consider....

OceanGate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I won't weigh in til the dust settles. (The article
is subject to revision as info improves.)

From the Wiki:

After proof testing to dives at its maximum rated depth in 2018 and 2019, the original composite hull of Titan developed fatigue damage and was replaced by 2021.

So what did they do to avoid any such future damage, apart from limiting the number of dives it might have to do perhaps?

Titan was equipped with a real-time acoustic monitoring system, which OceanGate claimed could detect the onset of buckling in the carbon fiber hull prior to catastrophic failure. Rush held a patent on the system.

Not much use really then - 'the hull is failing, bye chaps!'

David Lochridge, the OceanGate Director of Marine Operations, inspected the Titan as it was being handed over from Engineering to Operations and filed a quality control report in January 2018 in which he stated that no non-destructive testing of the carbon fiber hull had taken place to check for voids and delaminating which could compromise the hull's strength. Instead, Lochridge was told that OceanGate would rely on the real-time acoustic monitoring system, which he felt would not warn the crew of potential failure with sufficient time to safely abort the mission and evacuate. The day after he filed his report, he was summoned to a meeting in which he was told the acrylic window was only rated to 1,300 m (4,300 ft) depth because OceanGate would not fund the design of a window rated to 4,000 m (13,000 ft). In that meeting, he reiterated his concerns and added he would refuse to allow crewed testing without a hull scan; Lochridge was dismissed from his position as a result.

No wonder some deemed it unsafe.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You introduced the fact that OceanGate is a corporation
(privately held). It's reasonable to infer criticism of business.

It was a criticism of a poor business practice, not business per se.

It would have spared both of us some effort if you had asked instead of jumping to that conclusion.

This is an example of judging based upon appearances
provided by news media. Do you have any cogent
reasoning to show that such a controller is inadequate?
I'd like an answer to this question.

According to the associate professor of aerospace engineering quoted in this article, controllers that look like gaming joysticks are normally used in operation of submersibles and aircraft, but he also added this:

When shown a photo of the Titan's video game controller via email, Wright said he's "never seen anything like that," and expected there would have been a more reliable main system.

While a video game controller might have most of the capabilities as a regular joystick controller on a sub, Wright said it would definitely not be as reliable. "In fact, I would expect the 'real' submersible controller to have a reliability of about one thousand times that of the games handset," he wrote.

The missing submersible was run by a video game controller. Is that normal?

Several aircraft and sea vessels are partially controlled by what looks like a video game controller – but they aren't your typical Xbox controller, one expert said.

www.cbsnews.com

The article also mentions that the controller used in the actual expedition may have been different, though, so I suppose we won't know for sure until further information comes out.

That's how it goes whenever an airplane crashes.
Every failure is an opportunity to prevent it from
happening again. Referring to a parallel issue,
the Titanic & liberty ships sinking resulted in
improving ship design & operating protocols.


You might not have expected this, but I've some
criticism of OceanGate's choices. It's in areas
not addressed in the news media, whose coverage
has been shallow & drama laden.
Consider....

OceanGate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I won't weigh in til the dust settles. (The article
is subject to revision as info improves.)

Fair enough.

 

[Nakosis]

What do you think of my testing proposal?

I would have at least done that, probably more than once.

I think someone with more experience would have done more.
I suspect people who lack experience dismiss the value of it.

 

[Revoltingest]

When the hull collapses, the air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion, Mr Corley says.
Human bodies incinerate and are turned to ash and dust instantly."

That claim seems greatly exaggerated to this
ignorant non-submariner groundskeeper.
Consider....
- Cremating a human body requires about 28 gallons of fuel.
That much airborne fuel per person would be highly toxic
in the confines of a submarine, or especially a submersible.
- Auto-ignition of any airborne hydrocarbons would indeed
happen on the Titan. Outside pressure was near 6000 psi.
Diesels need only around 1000 psi for compression ignition.
- Cremating bodies takes time, even at temperatures high
enuf to do the job. Ignited fumes on a sub would be quickly
quenched by the inrush of water under high pressure.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Thats true. According to this guy it was superfast.

"When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500mph (2,414km/h) - that's 2,200ft (671m) per second, says Dave Corley, a former US nuclear submarine officer.
The time required for complete collapse is about one millisecond, or one thousandth of a second.
A human brain responds instinctually to a stimulus at about 25 milliseconds, Mr Corley says. Human rational response - from sensing to acting - is believed to be at best 150 milliseconds.
The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapours.
When the hull collapses, the air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion, Mr Corley says.
Human bodies incinerate and are turned to ash and dust instantly."

Titan sub implosion: What we know about catastrophic event - BBC News

The Titan submersible suffered a violent collapse inwards deep underwater in the North Atlantic.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Still ignoring the point that an indication of failure being imminent might have been known even if the failure itself took such a miniscule amount of time.

 

[Revoltingest]

It was a criticism of a poor business practice, not business per se.

Instead of making it about poor practice,
you chose poor business practice.
So I addressed it. Are you still objecting
to responding to that aspect of your post?

It would have spared both of us some effort if you had asked instead of jumping to that conclusion.

It would have spared you the grief of
responding fully to your post if you
hadn't made it about corporations.

Remember that I'm easily triggered.
And if you broaden the topic under
discussion, I might notice.

According to the associate professor of aerospace engineering quoted in this article, controllers that look like gaming joysticks are normally used in operation of submersibles and aircraft, but he also added this:

The missing submersible was run by a video game controller. Is that normal?

Several aircraft and sea vessels are partially controlled by what looks like a video game controller – but they aren't your typical Xbox controller, one expert said.

www.cbsnews.com

What do you have against using a
game controller on a submersible?

 

[Revoltingest]

From the Wiki:



So what did they do to avoid any such future damage, apart from limiting the number of dives it might have to do perhaps?



Not much use really then - 'the hull is failing, bye chaps!'



No wonder some deemed it unsafe.

You wouldn't catch me on that thing.
But I can see that motivated people would
be willing to take risks beyond my comfort
zone to accomplish what they did.

 

[Revoltingest]

Still ignoring the point that an indication of failure being imminent might have been known even if the failure itself took such a miniscule amount of time.

I can imagine it being possible to detect signs
of imminent failure before it becomes catastrophic.
But I've never worked with composites, so I'm not
familiar with their failure modes & stress-strain
response at limits.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I can imagine it being possible to detect signs
of imminent failure before it becomes catastrophic.
But I've never worked with composites, so I'm not
familiar with their failure modes & stress-strain
response at limits.

Me neither, but I know about voids and such between layers, and how apparently one can't monitor such material like one would do with most metals. According to the Wiki, a scan for voids wasn't even done.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You wouldn't catch me on that thing.
But I can see that motivated people would
be willing to take risks beyond my comfort
zone to accomplish what they did.

Not me either. I prefer to trust all the equipment I use - knowing it all has had quality control to ensure its safety.

 

[Revoltingest]

According to the Wiki, a scan for voids wasn't even done.

Is it known that it should've been done?
I can say lots of critical things about airplanes
that sound really bad, but aren't in reality.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not me either. I prefer to trust all the equipment I use - knowing it all has had quality control to ensure its safety.

You don't have a burning desire to
visit the Titanic. If you did, there'd
be compromises to make.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Is it known that it should've been done?
I can say lots of critical things about airplanes
that sound really bad, but aren't in reality.

I think that kind of thing is standard practice with such materials in the aircraft industry, but presumably there were no such standards for maritime use and I'm not sure what they would do with the results. Perhaps scrap it if the number of defects were above a certain value, but how could one do this for such an expensive item.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You don't have a burning desire to
visit the Titanic. If you did, there'd
be compromises to make.

Like wanting to stay alive?

 

[Stevicus]

MSN

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada announced Friday it is launching an investigation into the implosion of the Titanic-bound submersible that killed all five passengers.

The announcement came as investigators continued to scour the ocean floor for any insight into the “catastrophic implosion” on the Titan submersible that suddenly lost communication with its mother ship, Polar Prince, last weekend, officials said.

A new, second mission of the Odysseus 6K ROV began late Friday morning to continue searching and mapping efforts, Jeff Mahoney, spokesperson for Pelagic Research Services, told CNN.

Any attempts to recover anything from the debris field will warrant a larger operation in tandem with Deep Energy, another company assisting with the mission, because the debris will likely be too heavy for Pelagic’s ROV to lift by itself, Mahoney said. The recovery efforts would include using rigged cabling to pull up any debris.

ROV missions are expected to continue for about another week, according to Mahoney.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why assume the warnings were dismissed,
rather than considered & rejected?

Dismiss and rejected mean the same thing in this context.

re·ject​

verb
dismiss as inadequate, inappropriate, or not to one's taste.

dis·miss​

: to reject serious consideration of (something or someone)