Titanic tourist submersible: Search for missing vessel has covered over 10,000 square miles

[Revoltingest]

Dismiss and rejected mean the same thing in this context.

​

If you focus solely upon 2 words, ignore all the others,
& pick the most similar of various definitions, you could
arrive at that conclusion. But you're smarter than that.
So I know you're just mess'n with me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That claim seems greatly exaggerated to this
ignorant non-submariner groundskeeper.
Consider....
- Cremating a human body requires about 28 gallons of fuel.
That much airborne fuel per person would be highly toxic
in the confines of a submarine, or especially a submersible.
- Auto-ignition of any airborne hydrocarbons would indeed
happen on the Titan. Outside pressure was near 6000 psi.
Diesels need only around 1000 psi for compression ignition.
- Cremating bodies takes time, even at temperatures high
enuf to do the job. Ignited fumes on a sub would be quickly
quenched by the inrush of water under high pressure.

With those temperatures though im sure we could expect to evidence of severe burns though.
But regardless I doubt there's really much of anything left to recover. Extreme compression, extreme heat, extreme pressures, it blew the hull apart and it was tons more durable than a human body.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This misses the point that criticism isn't necessarily
what people (who are unfamiliar) might imagine.
If safety was given too little priority, let that come
out of investigation.

It's already coming up. Failing to adequately test a new design that's below the norms for safe exploration shows they didn't prioritize safety.
Even Russia sent animals to space before humans.

But it's not.
Sitting atop a giant potential explosive,
riding it into space where death is quick
without life support is fundamentally
dangerous. NASA pays great attention
to safety, yet astronauts die.

It has its risks, but death rarely happens. And even during routine surgeries sometimes things happen but generally speaking it's safe. It's that way with space travel, and as such it's been rare for astronauts to die while traveling to and from.
And as well NASA has also been shamed for proceeding when there was a safety concern.

A trip to Mars would yield discoveries about
unanticipated & underestimated problems.
Doing something new in a dangerous environment
is always unsafe. The question is to what degree
is is the unsafety reasonable relative to other
factors.

We've sent drones, and I don't see NASA using a design that's below the normal standards for space travel. We routinely do things in space now. It's still dangerous, but not so dangerous that it's questioned if those in the ISS will return home or not. It's assume they will. As it is with trips to the Titanic, but that's with transportation that has been tested and up to the standards and norms for being in that environment.

Consider the cost of a manned Mars mission. Safety
would be enhanced if there were a rescue vehicle
in case needed. But that would likely be a budget
buster. So it would be reasonable to sacrifice
some margin of safety to make the project affordable.
Much smaller projects like the Titan face similar
decisions.

It really wouldn't be a bad idea to launch some automated "lifeboats" several months ahead of a mission to rescue people just in case. Yes, it would be extra money but it's such as obvious necessity for space travel to have a means of rescuing a ship that has lost power.

One of the criticisms of the Titan was using 5" thick
walls instead of 7" thick on the carbon fiber tube.
There could be trade-offs making it 7", eg, elastic
deformation of the tube could differ from the
titanium ends, creating potential failure points
at the connections. There could've been other
issues.
We don't know what we don't know about the
decisions made in balancing cost vs performance
vs safety.

That should have been tested many times with a careful examination after each dive before any human volunteers were sent. Truly, I don't see why such experimental things are subjected to and regulated by the same laws amd ethics as medical and science research that involves people. That happened because of such abuses and for the same reasons needs to be expanded to other institutions and forms of research.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's already coming up.

"Coming up" means it's not here yet.
All your claims are mere speculation.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Some more about why carbon-fibre was probably inappropriate as a material for the hull, and which I had missed but knew about - the differences between its high tensile strength as opposed to its less compressive strength, and the problem as to monitoring damage - a discussion on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/14gbb2q
And this:

Expert who took trip on doomed Titanic sub heard chilling noise while under sea

Karl Stanley said he warned OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush to slow down his Titanic plans after their 12,000-foot descent in the Caribbean in 2019

www.mirror.co.uk

A submersible expert who took a trip on the Titan sub with OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush in 2019 says the hull made terrifying creaking sounds during their descent.

Speaking about his 2019 trip to CNN Karl Stanley recalled that Rush, who was piloting the sub, warned him about the creaking sounds coming from the hull so he was not overly concerned at the time. But after returning from the trip he was worried enough to email the OceanGate founder warning him that the noise was likely dangerous. The day after the dive he wrote that the noise heard during their descent “sounded like a flaw/defect in one area being acted on by the tremendous pressures and being crushed/damaged.” The email, obtained by the New York Times, warns that the loud creaking sounds indicated "an area of the hull that is breaking down."

 

[Revoltingest]

Some more about why carbon-fibre was probably inappropriate as a material for the hull, and which I had missed but knew about - the differences between its high tensile strength as opposed to its less compressive strength, and the problem as to monitoring damage - a discussion on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/14gbb2q
And this:

Expert who took trip on doomed Titanic sub heard chilling noise while under sea

Karl Stanley said he warned OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush to slow down his Titanic plans after their 12,000-foot descent in the Caribbean in 2019

www.mirror.co.uk

Creaking sounds don't necessarily signal failure.
Perhaps it's just slight relative motion of surfaces
of hull components. I don't know. And I question
whether those who claim to know really do.
Another cause of failure could be collision, as
happened to this guy in a Russian submersible.

Safety is a relative thing. Should a 1% chance
per dive be unacceptable or acceptable. Is 2%
or 0.5% acceptable. Arguments don't make
one safety level right, & another wrong.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Creaking sounds don't necessarily signal failure.
Perhaps it's just slight relative motion of surfaces
of hull components. I don't know. And I question
whether those who claim to know really do.
Another cause of failure could be collision, as
happened to this guy in a Russian submersible.

Safety is a relative thing. Should a 1% chance
per dive be unacceptable or acceptable. Is 2%
or 0.5% acceptable. Arguments don't make
one safety level right, & another wrong.

As you say, noises coming from the hull might be damage or might not be, but it's hardly safe not knowing as to such, and if the hull can't be proven to be safe before any dive then one is essentially gambling - if one doesn't know the extent of any damage received from previous dives. From those in the know it seems likely that the vessel suffered from low cycle fatigue damage - as apparently happened to Cyclops 1, the previous vessel before Titan (renamed from Cyclops 2) and which was scrapped - and that CF was just the wrong material for the job. But a collision is a possibility so as to cause damage and then cause the demise of Titan - but unlikely given the time to loss of communication and the location of the debris.

I prefer these kinds of sounds (from about 1:40) - reminiscent of being on a sailing yacht, and being rather reassuring:

 

[Revoltingest]

As you say, noises coming from the hull might be damage or might not be, but it's hardly safe not knowing as to such, and if the hull can't be proven to be safe before any dive then one is essentially gambling....

We don't know what the designers & operators
of the Titan knew about the noises.

....if one doesn't know the extent of any damage received from previous dives. From those in the know it seems likely that the vessel suffered from low cycle fatigue damage - as apparently happened to Cyclops 1, the previous vessel before Titan (renamed from Cyclops 2) and which was scrapped - and that CF was just the wrong material for the job. But a collision is a possibility so as to cause damage and then cause the demise of Titan - but unlikely given the time to loss of communication and the location of the debris.

I prefer these kinds of sounds (from about 1:40) - reminiscent of being on a sailing yacht, and being rather reassuring:

I'd rather have a silent hull.
But I don't think that would be possible.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We don't know what the designers & operators
of the Titan knew about the noises.

I'd rather have a silent hull.
But I don't think that would be possible.

Well at least all-metal hulls are more likely to be so, rather than anything that uses a mixture of laminates and resin, and more easily checked for issues as to damage. I think this is what most will be complaining about - the lack of any precise ability to ensure the hull was safe.

 

[Revoltingest]

Making a part for a submersible hull....

 

[Mock Turtle]

This might be worth a view too:

 

[Mock Turtle]

A few more that are worth viewing, especially the second:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A few more that are worth viewing, especially the second:

It is seeming more and more like this was just doomed to fail. I don't think I've read this much about structures and how the handle up since learning how to debunk Truthers.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It is seeming more and more like this was just doomed to fail. I don't think I've read this much about structures and how the handle up since learning how to debunk Truthers.

It sure has got the interest of many, given that there are so many areas where it could have failed. In one video there is an image of how the vessel might have looked - when pitching to financiers perhaps (larger, with seats, and proper control panels) - compared with how it turned out, and perhaps suggests some money-saving as to causing the result.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It sure has got the interest of many, given that there are so many areas where it could have failed. In one video there is an image of how the vessel might have looked - when pitching to financiers perhaps (larger, with seats, and proper control panels) - compared with how it turned out, and perhaps suggests some money-saving as to causing the result.

And apparently the CEO guy didn't like hearing criticism or concerns when someone would point out a potential safety issue.

 

[We Never Know]

Highlights from Day One as the search for the missing Titanic submersible continues

Coverage on this live blog has ended. Please click here for the latest updates.

www.nbcnews.com

There's five people on board with less than 40 hours of oxygen left. They lost contact with them on Sunday and can't find them.

They suggested the possibility it might have gotten tangled in the wreckage of the Titanic, in which case it would be easier to find.

According to this article, it disintegrated as quick/quicker than the brain can compute.

"Within 14 milliseconds, the entire hull of the Titan sub has gone from being fully intact to complete disintegration."

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

According to this article, it disintegrated as quick/quicker than the brain can compute.

"Within 14 milliseconds, the entire hull of the Titan sub has gone from being fully intact to complete disintegration."

MSN

www.msn.com

Yes, that is because unlike what you often hear, water is compressible. In fact from the surface down to the depth of the titanic it is perfectly compressible. A quick way that anyone can verify that water is compressible is to go to the bottom of a pool and gently (we do not want to break anything) tap the tiles on the bottom with a hammer. If you can hear the taps you know that water is compressible. Sound is just compression waves travelling through the water.

At the depth of the titanic water has been compressed 4%. Now let's say that you had a perfect hard material that did not compress. Fill it with air. And let's say that it's weight was negligible. Take it down to that depth. You will be using just as much energy as it would take to lift an equal volume of water three miles high. Now break that bubble. The highly compressed water will almost instantly accelerate to the speed of sound in water. The energy released will be the same as it took to lift that volume of water straight up.

The good news would be, except for possibly a few warning cracks they would not have felt thing. The collapse would have been extremely faset and highly energetic. That is why thy found a debris field. Pieces of submarine everywhere, instead of finding an intact submarine with a hole in it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes, that is because unlike what you often hear, water is compressible. In fact from the surface down to the depth of the titanic it is perfectly compressible. A quick way that anyone can verify that water is compressible is to go to the bottom of a pool and gently (we do not want to break anything) tap the tiles on the bottom with a hammer. If you can hear the taps you know that water is compressible. Sound is just compression waves travelling through the water.

At the depth of the titanic water has been compressed 4%. Now let's say that you had a perfect hard material that did not compress. Fill it with air. And let's say that it's weight was negligible. Take it down to that depth. You will be using just as much energy as it would take to lift an equal volume of water three miles high. Now break that bubble. The highly compressed water will almost instantly accelerate to the speed of sound in water. The energy released will be the same as it took to lift that volume of water straight up.

The good news would be, except for possibly a few warning cracks they would not have felt thing. The collapse would have been extremely faset and highly energetic. That is why thy found a debris field. Pieces of submarine everywhere, instead of finding an intact submarine with a hole in it.

No matter how quickly their end might have been - and suggestions are that it would be virtually instantaneous - they still might have known that they were about to die - from various sounds and other indications occurring beforehand.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No matter how quickly their end might have been - and suggestions are that it would be virtually instantaneous - they still might have known that they were about to die - from various sounds and other indications occurring beforehand.

There was a questionable "ship's log" that I heard about at one video and that seemed to be the case. According to it they descended too quickly and then were having trouble resurfacing. When I don't hear a questionable claim repeated I become very dubious. But, yes, there could have been some warning noises.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There was a questionable "ship's log" that I heard about at one video and that seemed to be the case. According to it they descended too quickly and then were having trouble resurfacing. When I don't hear a questionable claim repeated I become very dubious. But, yes, there could have been some warning noises.

Even if it might be unpalatable to many, I find it hard to believe that they had no indications as to it all going wrong. But as all mainly have suggested, they will not have suffered when it happened, it being so sudden.