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To all christians on this forum
- Thread starter Starlight
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Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
YES, a Triune Godhead.
My question is: why would any Christian doubt the Trinity? It is not some new fangled idea, but rather goes back to the early years of Christianity.
www.thegospelcoalition.org
Yes, our finite, rational minds struggle to understand the concept; humans have been trying to do so for almost 2000 years. But what has been revealed to us, IMHO, conclusively points to a 'three in one' God.
I struggled with this for a long time.
My question is: why would any Christian doubt the Trinity? It is not some new fangled idea, but rather goes back to the early years of Christianity.
Trinitarianism in the Early Church
Coleman Ford overviews the doctrine of the Trinity as its understanding developed in the church during the second through fifth centuries.
Yes, our finite, rational minds struggle to understand the concept; humans have been trying to do so for almost 2000 years. But what has been revealed to us, IMHO, conclusively points to a 'three in one' God.
I struggled with this for a long time.
Let me ask you to clarify what you think the Trinity is. Once upon a time there was a dispute about whether to accept the trinity or not, but these days there is even confusion about what the word means. Large groups of people think it is this or that, or they don't know. Its common to hear some people say its beyond understanding. There are also people who say it is simple as a pie of three ingredients. There is a lot of confusion, and so you may not even know what the Trinity is. In that case what is the point in discussing whether to believe in it?
One or more strawman versions of the Trinity often are passed around; and people judge the Trinity based upon what it is not.
If you aren't familiar with this I'll give you an example: A convert to Christianity is taught very little but is told that everything they need is in the bible, so they read that. They can't find the Trinity in there. They'll either try to figure out how to see the Trinity in it, or they may try to debunk the Trinity using it. Then they hear rumors or imagine what the Trinity is, and so they likely have a partial understanding, which is a misunderstanding. Teachers also sometimes spread mistaken ideas, and it is easy to become a broadcaster or teacher of inaccurate information.
That's why I ask what you think it is.
It depends on what trinity means. As a disciple of Jesus, I believe what Jesus said. And according to him there is only one true God, who is greater than him. Jesus didn't speak anything about trinity.
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascend-ing to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5
As you may know, in Bible a Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And person is a disciple of Jesus, if he remains in his word.
…The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26
Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:31-32
Starise
Member
I don't believe we find the word 'trinity' mentioned as a word in the bible. As a concept certainly. We see the Holt Spirit who hovered over the waters at creation and who was at work in the 2nd Chapter of Acts.
We have Jesus who many don't realize is bibically supported to have been along since the beginning of creation and before as part of the godhead, so He wasn't a new arrival, He was inserted into humanity for His purposes. We have God who is locational in heaven and who sent Jesus to the earth to die for sins who then returned to 'heaven' which in this context is where the two are presently. The Holy Spirit is the one who is on this earth presently in true believers.
I believe in what is called the trinity because it's a fixture of the bible. We may not understand it all, except to say they are together and in places referred to as one.
We have Jesus who many don't realize is bibically supported to have been along since the beginning of creation and before as part of the godhead, so He wasn't a new arrival, He was inserted into humanity for His purposes. We have God who is locational in heaven and who sent Jesus to the earth to die for sins who then returned to 'heaven' which in this context is where the two are presently. The Holy Spirit is the one who is on this earth presently in true believers.
I believe in what is called the trinity because it's a fixture of the bible. We may not understand it all, except to say they are together and in places referred to as one.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Within Catholicism, the Trinitarian concept is largely based on the use of "essence", in that it is believed that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the essence of God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
According to the Bible, there is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but the Bible says nothing about those being part of a triune Godhead.
The Bible says nothing about Persons. That is a man-made Christian doctrine.
A Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jul 23, 2009
Trinity - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
amazing grace
Active Member
No, I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. #1 Jesus never taught it. #2 It was never taught in the book of Acts, the beginning of the early church. And, lastly, Paul never taught it throughout his epistles. Man sinned against God, therefore, a man had to die for the redemption of mankind.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Taken at the literalistic level, that makes no sense. But symbolically, it can.
setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
What do you mean by trinity? The relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as found in the bible? Then yes. But that's as far as one can go when using the word trinity. That is that there is a relationship. But God is ineffable. The relationships between those entities are ineffable. That is why the bible does not define those relationships by using the word trinity. The concept is not found in the bible. It is interpretively implied.
Catholicism, imo, went wrong when it tried to define and explain the concept by using meaningless, made up Greek words to try and define that relationship. The same mistake they've made, again imo, when declaring Mary the mother of God. Under analysis not only does one come to a realization of just how meaningless and or contradictory those concepts become but also just how short human language falls when trying to understand the how of Gods nature. Not only does it fail but its an affront to God. He already told us it was ineffable.
Unfortunately the concept has sewn more discord among Christians and others than it has brought them to a unified understanding of God.
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setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
What do you think it reflects of reality, symbolically?
setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
As for me...its not doubting. I believe there is a unique relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost implied in the bible. I draw the line however when we start using old Greek concepts to attempt an explanation of an ineffable relationship. Nowhere in the bible is there an iota of an attempt to explain that relationship and for good reason. God said he is ineffable. That early Christian thinking on the Trinity is fraught with disagreement and political maneuvering in order to gain standing within the church. It was never willingly universally agreed upon. From the get go.
We must be silent in the places me cannot understand. Not use those mysteries to further an agenda by feigning understanding.
Dogmas have developed around the Trinity. Schisms have happened. People have actually been denied entry into the Catholic Church because they cannot in good conscious profess to believe in something they do not understand what it is they are being asked to believe in.
SILENCE with that which is beyond our abilities to know! Our salvation comes from Christs simple teaching. Not from Knowing Gods unfathomable nature.
setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
Lets explore this and show others how these concepts inevitable lead to contradiction. What do you think the essence of God means? How do we define it?
setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
Not exactly. Gods "personhood" is semantically derived from how "person" is defined.
For instance, if we define a person as a being that is self aware and we define God as a self aware being then we can infer that God is a person in that sense. The concepts of what defines a person is man-made but not from Christian doctrine though it may use those man-made concepts.
setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
Tell me...what is it that we are to believe in?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that God is a person in the sense that you said.
While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.
God in the Baháʼí Faith
And of course Jesus was also a person, but I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person.
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God whose luminous rays emanated from Jesus.
I am not a Christian, but I would like to point out that Hinduism also has three main gods which I believe correspond to the Christian Trinity.
Shiva - Transformer/Destroyer - corresponds to the Father
Vishnu - Sustainer - corresponds to the Son
Brahma - Creator - corresponds to the Holy Spirit.
Unlike Christians, Hindus don't believe that these are three persons in One God, but that they are three separate gods.
amazing grace
Active Member
Jesus did not symbolically die. He literally died.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]
NOUN
- the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
"conflict is the essence of drama"
- PHILOSOPHY
a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.
- PHILOSOPHY