To All Self-Proclaimed Christians

[verycurious]

A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless. I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application. That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself. It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.
Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

 

[lunamoth]

Welcome to the forum.

You seem to have reached a point in your journey that many here have also been through...some of us more than once!

You are right, it is very hard to have a faith in God that is not motivated by fear or desire, and it is something many of us struggle with. Perhaps that's what it means to take up our cross daily?

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point).

You may find you come to a point where you find that the question of whether or not God 'exists' is not really the question. But that aside, I totally agreewith your take on trust: it's the heart of the matter of religion. God is. Now what are you going to do with that knowledge? Who or what are you going to trust if you decide to set your sails and not just go with the flow? Or, you can just go with the flow, but of course that's a choice as well.

Enjoy!

luna

 

[doppelganger]

You may find you come to a point where you find that the question of whether or not God 'exists' is not really the question.

Oooooo, that's good. . .

I'm out of frubals, though.:sad4:

 

[michel]

A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless. I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application. That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself. It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.
Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

Hi verycurious,

As I notice that this is your first post here, I thought that I would take the opportunity to Welcome you to Religious Forums; you might like to introduce yourself to the other members by posting on Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?

As concerns your post;

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

That isn't awfully tactful, but I guess it is a valid question and one that is to the point.

I (and a lot of Christians I know) believe that God will judge those who die on how they have behaved during their time on Earth; It would be absurd to imagine that only "the one right group" would make it to heaven. Besides, I know some extremely spiritual atheists, as well as Christians with whom I have problems understanding how they rationalize their judgementalism.

Religionhas not been replaced by science; the two are distinctly different, and supplement each other.

I dare say that people have used Religion to keep others in tow - but I bet that science has done the same thing (I have a gun, you haven't, I have an atomic bomb...etc)

You are right in that doing good deeds give pleasure; the point is though that the pleasure is not (or at least ought not to be) the reason for doing those deeds; the pleasure comes after, on reflection. Besides not all good deeds work out.

Is there any pointin Religion, what is Religion ? It is the name I give to the subject of my prayers (which I believe are listened to), and the fact that when I ask for help, I am often shown the way through a particular problem.

You could argue that that need have nothing to do with a God and that I am talking to myself. If that's what you want to believe, then that's fine. I am most certainly not going to try and turn you into a Christian; how you lead your life is up to you. If not believing in God is what suits you best 9and you are a decent guy), then I see no reason why you shouldn't end up in the same place that I hope to when I die.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Oooooo, that's good. . .

I'm out of frubals, though.:sad4:

I've got it man. Frubals for her, from you, via me.

 

[lunamoth]

I've got it man. Frubals for her, from you, via me.

Thanks guys! And it was rather awkwardly stated to boot!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

First, I would like to comment on your good ability to express your ideas...
Second, I disagree with what you have said above...
You said that religion was first proposed to explain the unexplainable...But I think science existed from the first moment of the human life, side by side with religion...

Science is not a new issue, it's existing by the existance of human being...
It's not neccesarly nano- technology, or micro biology or such huge terms....Lighting up fire is science as well...Knowing how to cover yourself from cold is science..etc
It depends on the era your are living in...

Moreover, all Abrahamic religions for instance did not start to explain any inexplainable thing...It started because our God wanted it to start, so that to enlighten the humanity and get it back to worshipping God....No science in the story..

Thats what I think anyway

 

[porkchop]

I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause.

I would like to say it is just cynicism, but unfortunately this is the case with many who proclaim to be christian, ive seen it all my life, and its hard, cause it gives the true christians a bad name and people often tar us with the same brush. I appreciate you are not trying to be disrespectful, thats a good start on this forum!

.

It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying

.

I just wanted to point out that you don't know for sure what these peoples motives are who youve seen preaching or praying, it could be they generally want to preach the good news in the hope of youre salvation. ( unless youre talking bout some of the peps on the God(less) channel, then yeah, their motives are a whole new thread!!)

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control

Possibly; that, and for keeping people away from God, leading them astray,etc. Religion IS manmade.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist

I think the main thing to do is be logical and accept that of course, there is a God, and there is plenty of evidence to show this.

That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”.

I can believe because i am sure, i have total and utter assurance in Jesus, my saviour.

Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?

It is definately something much deeper. I thought youd be better getting the answer for "what is religion?" off someone who is religious, i am not. Religion to me is rules and rituals, i have a relationship with God which is truly wonderful.

By the way, welcome to the forum, V.C. good usermane! and good thread!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not think there are any special rewards for believing in God, Jesus or any combination.

You can believe in God or not The choice is yours ... there is no pressure.
What ever you believe Jesus to be... he was one heck of a teacher.
What he taught was not the Jewish law that he had been brought up with.
It was new... he taught of a God of love ...that we should love each others as ourselves... that it was ok to talk to and love sinners... That helping others, not just those like you, was the right thing to do... that it was good to be a peace maker... that you should not retaliate.

The things he taught would be thought very liberal today. unheard of then...

Where do we go from here... all the above, does not sound much like the Christians many of us know.

Jesus is quite a hard path to follow... However he knew we would all fail... we are all sinners.
All we must do is try... repent and confess our sins to him when we fail...
Just keep trying.


And what do we get for all the effort.
Nothing at all... that he has not already given us...

When we eventually return to God... we will not want any reward...we shall be where we started and where we want to be.

So what is it all about.
I have no idea, and nor does any one else.

We have our lives to live to the full...Jesus has shown the way...the least we can do is trust him and follow.

 

[Poetic Hypocracy]

You know... since its a topic to "All Self-proclaimed Christians" Watch "Life of Bryan" by Monty Python.... that problem how Jesus felt. He was trying to make basic points and teach and suddenly everyone thought of him as the messiah. Whats nexted the masses becoming Branch Davidians and following David Koresh?

Honestly guys not trying to offend anyone, but the bible is a load of crap. The present day bible was thrown together by a roman pagan ruler to unify the christians. THANKS alot.... now theres a bunch of yall. But, if knowing a pagan ruler organized your "Book of God" Then say a prayer or two for Constatine.... since thats what he was.

 

[logician]

There are many god concepts, and since all cannot be right, it's arrogant to think that only 1 of them is alone. For that reason , among others, I cannot accept that a god exists, for I don't believe in any "My way or the highway" religions.

 

[Popeyesays]

There are many god concepts, and since all cannot be right, it's arrogant to think that only 1 of them is alone. For that reason , among others, I cannot accept that a god exists, for I don't believe in any "My way or the highway" religions.

Why does it have to be just ONE way.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

You know... since its a topic to "All Self-proclaimed Christians" Watch "Life of Bryan" by Monty Python.... that problem how Jesus felt. He was trying to make basic points and teach and suddenly everyone thought of him as the messiah. Whats nexted the masses becoming Branch Davidians and following David Koresh?

Honestly guys not trying to offend anyone, but the bible is a load of crap. The present day bible was thrown together by a roman pagan ruler to unify the christians. THANKS alot.... now theres a bunch of yall. But, if knowing a pagan ruler organized your "Book of God" Then say a prayer or two for Constatine.... since thats what he was.

Problem is, Jesus knew exactly who he was. The basic point he was trying to make was that the kingdom had come near. His "basic point" may be a lot deeper and a lot more involved than you're willing to give it credit for.

For your info: Constantine did not "throw the Bible together." The canonization of sacred writings was a process that began shortly after 33 c.e. and continued for a couple hundred years. It was a project, not of one man, but of the whole Church. And...what "Constantine threw together" is not the "modern day Bible," as you think of it.

Why don't you do some homework and find some different language to use when describing the attributes of our sacred writings before you "not try to offend" us.

 

[UnityNow101]

Why must religion seperate us and why must we take a "my way or the highway" attitude? Every major religion expells the same moral principles and brings the people towards the face of the ONE TRUE God. The only thing that changes with every dispensation brought forth from God is the social Laws and principles according to what mankind is ready for at any given time.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

This has often been my experience with fellow Christians, too. However, a great percentage of us would still worship God. Because he created us, sent his own son to die to save us, and besides, being a Christian is just a good way to live in general.

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless. I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application. That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself. It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

I think that acts of volunteerism are supposed to give us joy. We should take joy in helping others. Is being joyful as a result of helping someone selfish? I think not.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

As I pointed out above, for a true Christian, worshipping and glorifying God is not about Heaven and Hell. So I would havr to disagree.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

I would say that I believe whole-heartedy in God, but it is by no means blind faith, or blind belief. I have facts behind my belief. I am a moderately practical and factual person, so I don't think I COULD believe in God if there were no facts for His existance.

Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?

Christianity, at least, is all about glorifying our Creator and Savior. I mean, I was saved from death, so it seems to me that I should praise, thank, and do the bidding of the one who saved my life for the rest of my life. And he is God. So we should obviously want to praise him. And he made me. Which is kind of a big deal...without God, I would not be here right now. So of course, Christianity is not about punishment and reward. At least not for me. I take joy in the fact that I am going to Heaven because I am so happy to be spending eternity with my god, Creator, and Savior. Maybe that was confusing, but I hope you see what I mean.

 

[athanasius]

Religion IS manmade.

Yes I agree. Preach it sister! LOL!!! If you are a Christian you should also agree. Christians religion IS man-made. It was made by the MAN(who is also 100% God) Jesus Christ! This religion that the man-God Jesus made is called the Catholic religion! History clearly attest to that. Amen!

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Very Curious!

I agree with you to some extent. I think the promise of heaven or the threat of hell in Christianity can be tremendously distracting for many people from the beauty and spirituality of Christianity. As Luna says, that might be the cross that Christians must bear.

Do you allow a desire for heaven and a fear of hell to guide you? If you do, you risk loosing your spirit, IMHO. But the Christian message that you should love your neighbor as yourself and love God seems to me to steer many other people in the right direction for spiritual fulfillment.

Of course, I'm not a Christian, so I'm not sure I understand these things as well as, say, Luna, Michel, Sojourner, or many others on this board.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[chlotilde]

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell.

Speaking as one who is part of the "not all" crowd, you're just at a point of searching and that's good place to be (IMO). In fact, I'd say that one should question all (let me stress that...ALL) that you believe, all the time. Probably, most likely, everything you believe is because someone else told you so (whether parents or teachers or some Discovery television show.) When you come to a point that your are not convinced about what the truth could possibly be, then perhaps you are finally at the point when you can make a decision, a true choice. Here's a perfect example...

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless.

Are these people being self-less, or selfish? Now make your choice. Does the answer lie in something called "intent of actions"? Does "intent in actions" really just mean a grand illusion of mind to make me "think" I am somehow in control of my body? Is there really something called free will that "I" can make a choice about what "I" want to believe about selfishness/selflessness or anything at all? The joys of Life in a paradox.

One of my favorite quotes is by T.S. Eliot, when he said, "Man can not handle too much reality"

Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

Some of us older people (well, middle aged really ) have hit our paradoxes, and made our choices about what we want to believe (or not believe).

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out)

You say this like it is something "bad"? Do you think this is bad? Or just a fact of life, this want of power? (This is a lesson about life that predates even the Bible...the fall of the Angel Lucifer and his want of "power")

Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion?

It is man's attempts to answer just the same questions you asked above.

chlo

 

[Booko]

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell.

I know you addressed this to Christians, but I'd like to point out that there are other religions who don't do the heaven and hell thing at all.

Although pretty much most of religion does have some concept of consequences for people who don't care to improve themselves and avoid harming others or the world around them. Even Eastern religions have karma.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out).

Oh, I'm sure it's been used that way. So have a lot of other things, like raw physical power, politics, and education, for just a few examples.

Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science.

Um, actually we have no idea why religion first appeared, since that's part of very distant prehistory.

And I question whether science is sufficient to replace religion. Science addresses the physical aspects of our existence. It doesnt' really address emotions. I've never seen science do much to movitate people to love their neighbor, and while science can be useful in informing ethics, science is not ethics.

Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on.

Really? God was fairly absent from the lives of Soviet citizens, but the lower classes (i.e. non Party members) certainly got trounced.

That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure?

Scientists can't be sure that tomorrow someone might not discover something that turns a major theory on its head. Relativity is just one example.

And with belief in religion, people believe in it because they observe that it works in some way for them, and for others. I really haven't meant too many people that I thought believed in God just because they feared hell. That's a child's approach to religion, and is not the sort of faith that appears to last a lifetime.

Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

There are a number of points to religion, but rather than skip cooking dinner while I start a list, I'll just see what else has been posted in the thread.

 

[Random]

I am not a Christian, but nonetheless the only thing that comes to mind having read the OP is that being Anti-religion on principal has too strong an element of Killing-the-Messenger about it to be credible.