To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[Argentbear]

Thank you for sharing your info

Personally the clear message I learn from this example, is that experts should never start gender change at age 12 or 13.

Smoking, sex, alcohol are allowed age 18 or so

There should be age limit here to

it seems the experts didn't. it's not clear just how or from who she had a double mastectomy so young. That is part of the records she refuses to release

 

[stvdv]

it seems the experts didn't. it's not clear just how or from who she had a double mastectomy so young. That is part of the records she refuses to release

Still, the YouTube seems legit, so I can't brush it just aside, and 12, 13 is too young to start with hormones

Anyway, such therapies are unsafe for your health, unless you have very strong liver and kidneys

As a kid their organs may be strong, but years later, we all know that American health is deteriorating

Hence, this practice is very dangerous, and should never be done. Doing it, especially at that age, is never smart, so I never vote for it

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Vivek Ramaswamy on Gender dysphoria:
1) It's a mental health condition (esp. in kids)
2) There are only 2 genders

There are only two sexes, but there are some people who just don't fit well into either box, and we need to be tolerant of them.

As far as gender goes, this is a new idea in our culture, that gender is separate from sex. Again, I would say there are two basic boxes, but some people just don't fit well into either one, and it's important to be tolerant of those who are different. That said, I think it is worth noting that in some cultures, they do say there is more than two genders. I'm basically sitting tight and seeing how this will all play out.

Because these 2 claims contradict:
* Sex you're attracted to is hardwired at birth, a core premise of the gay rights movement.

While there is a lot of truth to this, it is oversimplistic to say that hardwiring is the ONLY factor.

For example, let's say someone is hardwired at birth for bisexuality, what we might call sexually amorphous. That person would be quite open to environmental/social factors pushing them one direction or the other.

* Your own biological sex is totally fluid over your life

I don't even know what this means.

Vivek Ramaswamy on 2 genders (< 60sec):

Um, you mention he is talking about genders, but the title of this video mentions "the gay gene myth." Do you realize that gender and sexual attraction are not related to each other at all?

Although I didn't watch your video (I figure if there was something you wanted to say, you would say it), there is no scientist who says there is a gay gene. We know that genetics does play some role, but no one is saying it's 100% genetics. You have epigenetics, womb environment, etc., all of which may play a role. Science is only in the beginning stages of exploring this.

What we DO know, is that NO ONE chooses who they are attracted to, whether this is due to genes, epigenetics, womb environment, or social input. We all simply end up liking who we like.

 

[stvdv]

There are only two sexes, but there are some people who just don't fit well into either box, and we need to be tolerant of them.

To be "Tolerant" feels too minimalistic
I would say "Love them as thyself"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then exactly what gender do we label them?

First, let's talk about their SEX (I'll get to gender in a moment). A hermaphrodite is neither/both sexes. That's what intersexual MEANS. For the purposes of trying to get along in society, usually one or the other sex is chosen for them. This is easier in cases when the intersexuality is minor, rather than full blown. But this doesn't mean they actually ARE either male or female.

Personally, I think it is absolutely hideous that we surgically alter intersexed individuals. Oh, maybe in those mild cases I can see it. But how horrendous we are that we cannot allow people to exist as they are, that we have to force them into boxes where they don't belong. In some other cultures, an intersexed individual is considered like a *god*! Why do we have to treat them so badly?

Now let's talk about gender. This is a new concept in our culture. I was raised, "People have sex, words have gender." In my youth, there was no concept of anything other than a person was one sex or the other.

But today, an idea has evolved (and not for no reason), that gender is different than sex, that a woman (gender) is not the same thing as a female (sex), and a man (gender) is not the same thing as a male (sex).

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. You are confusing sex and gender. A person who is intersexed may express that their gender is man, woman, or that they don't really identify with either one (non-binary).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They are the same. If you disagree, please explain what is the difference.

I will do my best.

There are three elements that make up a person's sex: chromosomes, genitalia and secondary sex characteristics, and brain hardwiring. In MOST people all three are aligned. But in a minority they are not.

For one particular minority, their chromosomes and genitalia are one thing, but their brain hardwiring is the other. Because our brains essentially determine how we see ourselves, a transgendered individual will say they are a woman, despite having the chromosomes and genitalia of a male, or that they are a man, despite having the chromosomes and genitalia of a female. We have chosen to refer to this minority as "trans gendered." IOW while "sex" includes all three elements, gender refers to only one of them: brain hardwiring.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Treatment can help people who have gender dysphoria explore their gender identity and find the gender role that feels comfortable for them, easing distress. However, treatment should be individualized. What might help one person might not help another.​

It is not at all clear that physical transitioning helps transgendered individuals mentally. There simply have not been longitudinal studies done on this.

What we DO know is this: among children who felt confused about their gender in high school, most were quite comfortable with the gender that matched their sex by the time they were in their late 20s. That alone should give us an abundance of caution before we go altering the bodies of these children.

 

[stvdv]

As far as gender goes, this is a new idea in our culture, that gender is separate from sex. Again, I would say there are two basic boxes, but some people just don't fit well into either one. That said, I think it is worth noting that in some cultures, they do say there is more than two genders. I'm basically sitting tight and seeing how this will all play out.

I never gave sex/gender much thought
But since some people made it 'hot'
I thought "let me see their views"

While there is a lot of truth to this, it is oversimplistic to say that hardwiring is the ONLY factor.

I agree. IMO, psychological impact has to be taken very serious in this context

I don't even know what this means

Neither did I. I had to google this one

Um, you mention he is talking about genders, but the title of this video mentions "the gay gene myth." Do you realize that gender and sexual attraction are not related to each other at all?

I do

Although I didn't watch your video (I figure if there was something you wanted to say, you would say it),

True.

This time, even though the clip was very short, I did quoted the words Vivek said in the clip. I did not add my own words there

there is no scientist who says there is a gay gene.

Good to stick to science here

We know that genetics does play some role, but no one is saying it's 100% genetics. You have epigenetics, womb environment, etc.,

Definitely plays a role, I know from experience

all of which may play a role.

Science is only in the beginning stages of this.

True

What we DO know, is that NO ONE chooses who they are attracted to, whether this is due to genes, epigentics, womb environment, or social input. We all simply end up liking who we like.

Perfectly said

Thank you for your wonderful reply

 

[stvdv]

Personally, I think it is absolutely hideous that we surgically alter intersexed individuals. Oh, maybe in those mild cases I can see it.

So true

But how horrendous we are that we cannot allow people to exist as they are, that we have to force them into boxes where they don't belong

Perfectly said

Jesus" "Thou shall not judge" applies big time

In some other cultures, an intersexed individual is considered like a *god*! Why do we have to treat them so badly?

I love this one
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts

 

[Viker]

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. You are confusing sex and gender. A person who is intersexed may express that their gender is man, woman, or that they don't really identify with either one (non-binary).

Is that bold directed at me or at the one's who are actually confused?

I'm transgender. I am not confusing biologically assignable sex with gender. And I already agree with the second sentence. On birth certificates it should be male, female or non-binary (intersexed). With that clarity one's gender would have very little to do with their assignable sex. Unfortunately, for people like me, one's gender may not reveal itself until well after birth, as any necessary ways to exactly determine this are difficult to ascertain earlier.

The answer I was, hopefully, looking for was something like both, neither, non-binary, or the like. Or to be determined by the individual.

The confusion stems from the inflexible insistence there is only male or female. That is objectively false with the fact people are born intersexed. If that rigid binary is false than it calls into question the rigid classification of gender later on.

It should be up to the individual and then society should embrace and foster that individual. There's a possibility this may never universally happen. That's scary.

 

[Argentbear]

Still, the YouTube seems legit, so I can't brush it just aside, and 12, 13 is too young to start with hormones

and the experts you keep decrying agree with you

Anyway, such therapies are unsafe for your health, unless you have very strong liver and kidneys

As a kid their organs may be strong, but years later, we all know that American health is deteriorating

Hence, this practice is very dangerous, and should never be done. Doing it, especially at that age, is never smart, so I never vote for it

I was about to say that medicine isn't up to a vote but in the last couple years we have seen legislation that takes medical choices and even access to medical care away form the people

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is that bold directed at me or at the one's who are actually confused?

The bolded text was merely an attempt to get the topic back on track.

Unfortunately, for people like me, one's gender may not reveal itself until well after birth, as any necessary ways to exactly determine this are difficult to ascertain earlier.

I completely understand. However, given that in the vast majority of cases, the gender will align with the sex, it only make sense to proceed as though they will until such time the individual informs us they don't.

The confusion stems from the inflexible insistence there is only male or female. That is objectively false with the fact people are born intersexed. If that rigid binary is false than it calls into question the rigid classification of gender later on.

You are 100% correct.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I always viewed being a transsexual as a medical issue, caused by some biological mishap involving the hormones, in the womb. Gender bending in terms of how you express yourself is a seperate thing from that.

 

[Argentbear]

There are only two sexes, but there are some people who just don't fit well into either box, and we need to be tolerant of them.

As far as gender goes, this is a new idea in our culture, that gender is separate from sex. Again, I would say there are two basic boxes, but some people just don't fit well into either one, and it's important to be tolerant of those who are different. That said, I think it is worth noting that in some cultures, they do say there is more than two genders. I'm basically sitting tight and seeing how this will all play out.

Maybe there shouldn't be any boxes at all.

While there is a lot of truth to this, it is oversimplistic to say that hardwiring is the ONLY factor.

For example, let's say someone is hardwired at birth for bisexuality, what we might call sexually amorphous. That person would be quite open to environmental/social factors pushing them one direction or the other.

first sexual amorphous describes people who are asexual. Bisexuals are capable of forming romantic and pair bonds with people of either biological sex. And while they may choose to permanently partner with just one person that doesn't change their bisexuality.

I don't even know what this means.

Um, you mention he is talking about genders, but the title of this video mentions "the gay gene myth." Do you realize that gender and sexual attraction are not related to each other at all?

Although I didn't watch your video (I figure if there was something you wanted to say, you would say it), there is no scientist who says there is a gay gene. We know that genetics does play some role, but no one is saying it's 100% genetics. You have epigenetics, womb environment, etc., all of which may play a role. Science is only in the beginning stages of exploring this.

Which is why it is said that sexual orientation in inborn

 

[Viker]

I always viewed being a transsexual as a medical issue, caused by some biological mishap involving the hormones, in the womb. Gender bending in terms of how you express yourself is a seperate thing from that.

Not bragging but I present myself to the world because it makes me happy, it fits me........and I can totally get away with it.


Okay, that last part may be pushing some sort of braggadocio stuff.

 

[Viker]

Maybe there shouldn't be any boxes at all.

first sexual amorphous describes people who are asexual. Bisexuals are capable of forming romantic and pair bonds with people of either biological sex. And while they may choose to permanently partner with just one person that doesn't change their bisexuality.

Which is why it is said that sexual orientation in inborn

Well. We're human. We wouldn't be able to human anymore without our little boxes, labels and check marks. So humans have lead me to assume, anyway.

 

[Argentbear]

It is not at all clear that physical transitioning helps transgendered individuals mentally. There simply have not been longitudinal studies done on this.

That is incorrect. There are quite a few such studies. the largest was Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden Cecilia Dhejne which followed close to 400 people who fully transitioned for 11 years. The vast majority of the subjects reported improved mental health and improved quality of life

What we DO know is this: among children who felt confused about their gender in high school, most were quite comfortable with the gender that matched their sex by the time they were in their late 20s. That alone should give us an abundance of caution before we go altering the bodies of these children.

actually this is wrong and it comes from a "studies" done by an anti-LGBT group the American college of pediatrics. In one study they surveyed adults who had been prescribed puberty blockers as children and found that 90% of those adults do not identify as transgender. They leave out the fact that about 90% of puberty blockers are prescribed as a treatment for the medical condition precocious puberty

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe there shouldn't be any boxes at all.

Without boxes we couldn't communicate. Every word in every language is a box.

first sexual amorphous describes people who are asexual. Bisexuals are capable of forming romantic and pair bonds with people of either biological sex. And while they may choose to permanently partner with just one person that doesn't change their bisexuality.

"Amorphous" describes something that lacks a clear, defined shape or structure. So sexually amorphous orientation describes an individual whose orientation is not clearly defined. No, that does NOT mean someone who is asexual. The orientation of someone who is asexual IS clearly defined -- they don't want anyone.

Which is why it is said that sexual orientation in inborn

Again, for many, yes. For all, no. If a person is born with their orientation amorphous, social input is going to have a significant effect.

There have been women who have full on said they were heterosexual and enjoyed sex with men for many years. Then for whatever reasons, they cultivate their enjoyment of the same sex, and end up opting to go full on lesbian. Please explain to me how that happens?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

actually this is wrong and it comes from a "studies" done by an anti-LGBT group the American academy of pediatrics.

The entire American Academy of Pediatrics is homophobic? This tells me it is YOU who have a bias so strong that you can't acknowledge any evidence to the contrary. "They disagree with me so they must be lying!"

And that means we really can't have a productive conversation, so I'm moving on.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not bragging but I present myself to the world because it makes me happy, it fits me........and I can totally get away with it.


Okay, that last part may be pushing some sort of braggadocio stuff.

Hey, if it's who you are and you can pull it off, go for it!