to the ME: Where are your Jews, where is the apartheid?

[icehorse]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

Sorry I don’t understand your point? What has apartheid to do with arabs Jews immigration to Israel?

 

[Quagmire]

Sorry I don’t understand your point? What has apartheid to do with arabs Jews immigration to Israel?

I think the point @icehorse is trying to make is that the persecution and expulsion that Israelis are being accused of has, historically, worked both ways: according to some sources, in the last several decades close to a million Jews have been forced to leave their homes in places like Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Armenia, and several other Muslim states.

Its something you don't hear too much about. And like everything else to do with the Middle Eastern crisis, it's hard to find an unbiased interpretation of the events involved.

I think it's good to bring it up here though, to see what other people have to say about it.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I think the point @icehorse is trying to make is that the persecution and expulsion that Israelis are being accused of has, historically, worked both ways: according to some sources, in the last several decades close to a million Jews have been forced to leave their homes in places like Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Armenia, and several other Muslim states.

Its something you don't hear too much about. And like everything else to do with the Middle Eastern crisis, it's hard to find an unbiased interpretation of the events involved.

I think it's good to bring it up here though, to see what other people have to say about it.

Yeah I had that assumption but wanted to make sure that it was the goal of this thread.
I agree with you that these kind of events should be talked more but I just have concerns about the the wording of the events that all the Jews were expelled. That is like saying not 1 Jew has immigrated to Israel voluntarily .

I am saying this because this all happened after the creation of Israel, to claim there were no Jews in Arab countries that considered themselves as Zionist and wanted to return to the holy lands is something unrealistic to me. But I am open to learn more .

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think it's good to bring it up here though, to see what other people have to say about it.

Hopefully others will recognize

1. that the post-1948 treatment of Jews in Muslim countries has been deplorable, and
2. that it in no way justifies the callous slaughter of civilians in Gaza nor the systematic acts of terror against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Using the first to deflect condemnation of the second does a disservice to Jews and Palestinians alike.

 

[Quagmire]

Yeah I had that assumption but wanted to make sure that it was the goal of this thread.
I agree with you that these kind of events should be talked more but I just have concerns about the the wording of the events that all the Jews were expelled.

Yeah, it's like I was saying about trying to find an unbiased interpretation of events (as in: Good luck. )

There's a lot of hyperbole on both sides.

That is like saying not 1 Jew has immigrated to Israel voluntarily .

Good point.

I am saying this because this all happened after the creation of Israel, to claim there were no Jews in Arab countries that considered themselves as Zionist and wanted to return to the holy lands is something unrealistic to me. But I am open to learn more .

No, You're right. It would be irresponsible, even dishonest, to discount the Jewish people who immigrated from Muslim countries to Israel willingly.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Yeah, it's like I was saying about trying to find an unbiased interpretation of events (as in: Good luck. )

There's a lot of hyperbole on both sides

Lol I had to google the definition of hyperbole hut yes I agree.

No, You're right. It would be irresponsible, even dishonest, to discount the Jewish people who immigrated from Muslim countries to Israel willingly

Yes so maybe @icehorse can enlighten us on some of the facts

 

[Debater Slayer]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

I haven't seen any estimates that put the Jewish population of the Middle East prior to the foundation of Israel in the millions. For example:

Beginning in the eighteenth century, the proportion of Jews living in Europe grew steadily. By the end of the eighteenth century, there were 2.5 million Jews in the world, of whom a million lived in North Africa and the Middle East (including Turkey), while another 1.5 million lived in Europe. Of the European Jews, one million resided in Russia, Poland and Galicia, while the rest lived in Central and Western Europe.

In the nineteenth century, the European Jewish population had a constant growth in absolute numbers and percentages until 1880, when the percentage of Jews living in Europe reached its peak, then fell. There were then about 7,750,000 Jews in the world: 6,858,000 (88.5 percent) lived in Europe, 620,000 (8 percent) in Asia and Africa, and 250,000 in North and South America, and Australia.

2.4. European and Foreign Country Population Data

The Jewish Virtual Library also doesn't put the pre-Israel Jewish population in the Middle East as "millions," and it is a solidly pro-Israel source.

In 1945, roughly 1 million Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years. After the Arabs rejected the United Nations decision to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, however, the Jews of the Arab lands became targets of their own governments’ anti-Zionist fervor. As Egypt’s delegate to the UN in 1947 chillingly told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries will be jeopardized by partition.” The dire warning quickly became the brutal reality.

Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Nonetheless, it is true that many Jews were persecuted and expelled from Arab countries in the early to mid-20th century. Many also moved to Israel voluntarily. I believe that acknowledgement of historical wrongs, both by Arab countries regarding treatment of Jewish populations in that period (including expulsion) and by Israel regarding the Nakba (where over 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes) and massacres such as those in Deir Yassin and Tantura, is necessary for establishing long-term peace.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

@Jayhawker Soule's post sums up my thoughts on the above video:

Hopefully others will recognize

1. that the post-1948 treatment of Jews in Muslim countries has been deplorable, and
2. that it in no way justifies the callous slaughter of civilians in Gaza nor the systematic acts of terror against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Using the first to deflect condemnation of the second does a disservice to Jews and Palestinians alike.

I think that Hillel Neuer asked that question to deflect from criticism of the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians and its mass killing of civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right, and that applies to all countries, including Arab ones and Israel.

 

[Godobeyer]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

I personally have no problem with Jewish state, but not by eliminate/kick the real residents.

Israel regime is same as Germany of Hitler, the claim they are superior race. "the chosen people" , and the rest of the world are just the chosen human animals.

So why the West don't accept Germany nazis among them?
Why we should accept racist regime among us?
if someone fighting them you called him terrorist!!

 

[Jedster]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

In my family, I have one cousin married to an Iraqi Jew and another to an Egyptian Jew. I don't remember all the details except that the Iraqi fled and now lives here(UK) and the Egyptian was forced to leave Egypt losing all possessions and money.

Millions is certainly a gross exaggeration, I think it was 800000 or close.
AFAIK many went to live in Israel and certainly many are here in England and the USA. I met many when I visited Los Angeles (1985).

Also, when I was at university(London 1966-9), I knew several from Iraq, an Iranian and an Algerian.
He could cross his legs behind his neck.(He said this was yoga he learnt in Algeria.)
I had forgotten these people until I saw your post. Actually all of them had a good humour and excelled in their subjects.

Thanks for the memory. Cheers.

ETA Your post and @MayPeaceBeUpOnYou 's post awoke memories of another friend who I tried to google, another person of the similar name popped up and I thought you may be interested.

Dr David Gabbay: popular yet persecuted - Point of No Return

Jewish doctors made a massive contribution to Iraq in the 20th century. But it took Kobi Arami, who documents the history of the Iraqi-Jewish community, two years to get the medical establishment to recognise their role, especially that of Dr Jack Abboudi Shabi, the father of Iraqi psychiatry...

www.jewishrefugees.org.uk

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

In my family, I have one cousin married to an Iraqi Jew and another to an Egyptian Jew. I don't remember all the details except that the Iraqi fled and now lives here(UK) and the Egyptian was forced to leave Egypt losing all possessions and money.

Millions is certainly a gross exaggeration, I think it was 800000 or close.
AFAIK many went to live in Israel and certainly many are here in England and the USA. I met many when I visited Los Angeles (1985).

Also, when I was at university(London 1966-9), I knew several from Iraq, an Iranian and an Algerian.
He could cross his legs behind his neck.(He said this was yoga he learnt in Algeria.)
I had forgotten these people until I saw your post. Actually all of them had a good humour and excelled in their subjects.

Thanks for the memory. Cheers.

Just out of curiosity. What do you know about the claims of historians that Israel was so motivated to bring Jews from the Arab countries to Israel that they conducted false flag operations in egypt and Iraq?

 

[Jedster]

Just out of curiosity. What do you know about the claims of historians that Israel was so motivated to bring Jews from the Arab countries to Israel that they conducted false flag operations in egypt and Iraq?

I had an Iraqi work colleague & friend(Muslim) who told me that her parents had told her that one day all the Iraqi Jews just disappeared.
I just put down to propaganda of the Iraqi government at the time. I had met too may Iraqi Jews who told other horrible stories.

This lady was too scared to phone her family in Baghdad because she fled and feared the phone were tapped.(Sadam was in power then).

As I said I have only met Jews from Arab countries in Israel, England and USA. The years were 1966-69 in England and 1969-75 in Israel.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I had an Iraqi work colleague & friend(Muslim) who told me that her parents had told her that one day all the Iraqi Jews just disappeared.
I just put down to propaganda of the Iraqi government at the time. I had met too may Iraqi Jews who told other horrible stories.

This lady was too scared to phone her family in Baghdad because she fled and feared the phone were tapped.(Sadam was in power then).

As I said I have only met Jews from Arab countries in Israel, England and USA. The years were 1966-69 in England and 1969-75 in Israel.

Oh sure I am not denying the fact Jews were prosecuted in Arab countries after the ethnic cleansing of thé Palestinians and the creation of Israel.
You would agree with me those 2 events could be both factually correct right? Prosecuting Jews and false flag operations?

 

[Jedster]

Oh sure I am not denying the fact Jews were prosecuted in Arab countries after the ethnic cleansing of thé Palestinians and the creation of Israel.
You would agree with me those 2 events could be both factually correct right? Prosecuting Jews and false flag operations?

Sorry , I am not going there.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Sorry , I am not going there.

Okay thats a shame but maybe other are interested to know that indeed Israel preformed false flag operations in Arab countries. As of now there are 2 countries Egypt and Iraq that were a targeted.
The interesting of these events is that the same agent of Israel was involved, his name was Bennett. After Iraq he went to. Egypt’s and this where he got caught and killed himself in jail.

Lavon Affair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is the historian Avi shlaim explaining his findings, very educational interview especially since he himself is a Iraqi Jew.

Time stamp 10:30 / 25:00 is where he talks about the events but I highly recommend the watching the whole thing to everyone.

 

[Revoltingest]

"County X, where are your Jews?"

This is a textbook example of whataboutism.
When Israel enforces apartheid, the response....
"What about Muslim countries!"

It all sounds very Italian.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

since this topic is very interesting I look to marrocco and its his history with Jews since Jews were present there for almost 2000 years. As I have read there were around 300.000 Jews

For some context Islamic countries in Northern Africa have a history of being a place for Jews to come after being prosecuted by European.

Jews from marrocco were the first that immigrated to Palestine in the beginning of the 20th century and established on of the first settlements

Since marrocco was colonized by France and the Germans and they implanted anti Jewish law which Muslims didn’t agree with most of the times.


There were 2 anti Jewish riots the towns of Oujda and Jerada, which cost the lives of Jews. These 2 cities were departure point to Algeria for migration it Israel .Apparently France authority’s says this was something locally and not considered to be present in whole of marrocco, I don’t know how for this is true since France authority’s are not be trusted seeing their history as a colonial force.


After the independence of marrocco in 1956 they granted citizenship to all Jews.

Marrocco made the decision of advise of the Arab nation that Jews are not allowed to migrate to Israel due to the objection towards the naqba and the creation of israel. And the fear that the Jews would assist with the fight against the Arab nations

Marrocco made a deal( operation Yachin) with the mossad in order to accommodate the migration of Jews to Israel through Europe in exchange for money..

Some of the Jews returned to marrocco after immigration to Israel due the bad living environment of Arab Jews in Israel.

1948 anti-Jewish riots in Oujda and Jerada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Operation Yachin - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Moroccan Jews - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Somebody can correct me if I am wrong but it seems like the claim of Jews being expelled is misrepresenting a wrong picture of the events. . I mean Jews receiving citizenship and not wanting them to go to Israel doesn’t sound like they were expelled, it sounds like the opposite , they were considered as morrocain

 

[Jedster]

Oh sure I am not denying the fact Jews were prosecuted in Arab countries after the ethnic cleansing of thé Palestinians and the creation of Israel.
You would agree with me those 2 events could be both factually correct right? Prosecuting Jews and false flag operations?

[I noticed that we are in a political debate forum. I would not have posted anything had I realized that. I stopped debating these things some years ago. It debilitating for a lovely person like me.
However, here goes anyway]

No, I would not agree to any of that. Israel had a war with several Arab states in 1948 and the Arabs lost.
Sure there was great loss of lives(if memory serves, Israelis lost 10% of their population )and Israelis gained some land, i.e. Palestinians lost land.

In 1967 there was another war where Israel fought Jordan, Syria and Egypt.
Syria lost the Golan heights which Israel eventually annexed, Egypt lost some land, Sinia Peninsula and Gaza,
which incidentally refused to take back after the war. Leaving it occupied by Israel.(Oy gevalt!)

Jordan lost and gave up what we call the west bank(Judea & Samaria) and East Jerusalem which Israel annexed immediately(not sure when exactly).

Regarding the West Bank, Israel may have annexed at least part of it.
I stopped some years back following all the politics with this. I have no idea how many elections Israel had in recent times.( I have never voted there and never will.)
It does not stop me loving the country, even though I am now not there.

In 1973 Israel had a war with Egypt and Syria. There was an agreed cease fire after a few weeks. This led to peace talks some time later(don't remember the details) where land was returned to Egypt and Egypt recognised Israel. Egyptians claim a win. Syria did not regain the Golan heights.

Egyptian President Sadat was assassinated a few years later, probably because he recognised Israel(just my opinion).


Israel occupied Gaza until 2005, when it withdrew. I am uncertain of the history in Gaza, but at some point Hamas was voted in.(try googling it if you're interested.)

Oct 2023 Hamas entered Israeli territory and massacred civilians who were at a party. This initiated a war with Israel and the next day Hezbolla started to attack Israel in the North.
Hamas is Palestinan nationlist Sunni-based group and Hezbolla is Shia based Islamist group. They actually don't like each other, to say the least, but they are united in their hatred of Israel.
It's worth reading their charters.
This has led to a war we are witnessing today.

If you are following this war, I advise you to read the newspapers from Israel & the Arab world.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding your actual post:

I have known too many Iraqi and Syrian Jews(In particular) with horrific stories of treatment they received.
You can put up as many videos as you like by Jews or Israelis that demonize Israel. I don't really care because I go by what individuals have told me.

Of course we are on the internet where people lap up links as their facts and then have the chutzpa to go and argue. I try never to do this.

In conclusion, I'll just say that the Arab States should have accepted the original partition and welcomed any Jews into the middle east .
The place would be flourishing.

May peace be upon you to.

 

[Godobeyer]

Throughout much of the Muslim world, (the ME and Africa at least), Jews have largely disappeared. The ME used to be home to millions of Jews, but not any more.

In this video from the UN, we see many Muslim majority countries criticizing Israel for committing apartheid, but then question to these individual countries comes:

"County X, where are your Jews?"

Sorry did not notice that video talked about my country Algeria.
Most of Jews came with French colonalization and gone with it.
I don't recall that we have Jews community at all .
I can admit that Algerians people in general can't deal with Jews due Israel/conflict .because Algerians knew what's mean occupation and oppression and masacres while fighting occupation of France.
what's ever no good to generalized .
because Israel regime extrem deeds to Palestinians and regions ,I think better place for Jews is USA ,not among Muslim countries world. that's the real promise land is USA for all world.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I noticed that we are in a political debate forum. I would not have posted anything had I realized that. I stopped debating these things some years ago. It debilitating for a lovely person like me.
However, here goes anyway]

Even tho I appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinion about how things came to where we are today but with respect this is not relevant to the topic which is the claim of almost a million Jews being expelled in Arab countries.

can put up as many videos as you like by Jews or Israelis that demonize Israel. I don't really care because I go by what individuals have told me.

That’s a weird of way of determining the truth.
I mean how is jews saying that it was safe to stay in marocco is demonizing Israel?