To those who understand enlightenment

[MysticSang'ha]

Maybe I could go back through the thread and do that, but it's the evidence; 800,000 people were brutally killed, and it wasn't necessary. And it's happening again. Whatever we enlightened people think we're doing, isn't doing much, so what are we doing?

If the inference of doing nothing is that everything is already just fine, I don't get it. Yet?

If you say so, but what is it going to achieve - other than for you?

Ah, just a reminder for our outstanding membership.....this isn't supposed to be a debate thread.

As long as we're located in "Comparative Religion" - let's keep this to discussion. I apologize for derailing the discussion myself not too long ago.

I'd like to hear more concerning the inference that humans choose to "do nothing." If' 800,000 people were killed in Rwanda, would that not provide evidence that people just chose other things than defending the victims? How is this evident that people "did nothing?"

Just explain further, please.

 

[kaat]

I think you take things a little too much at face value.

What would it acheive for others? Well, if I gave up the search and enlightened myself, I would be more capable of compassion for one thing.

Okay. I'm saying I'm in doubt as to the level of compassion throughout the world. Why so little progress?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Okay. I'm saying I'm in doubt as to the level of compassion throughout the world. Why so little progress?

It's unrealistic to expect an answer to that question. Unless you are enlightened, compassion is only possible for a human being insofar that it enables the satisfaction of one's desires.

 

[kaat]

Ah, just a reminder for our outstanding membership.....this isn't supposed to be a debate thread.

May I request that this thread be moved to a place where debate can occur? I didn't know where to begin it in the first place, and the idea of debate being stifled abhors me.

I'd like to hear more concerning the inference that humans choose to "do nothing." If' 800,000 people were killed in Rwanda, would that not provide evidence that people just chose other things than defending the victims? How is this evident that people "did nothing?"

Just explain further, please.

I'm not sure that I can, other than to say that in my view, we are choosing to do the wrong things.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

You may want to PM another admin. She appears to be offline.

 

[kaat]

It's unrealistic to expect an answer to that question. Unless you are enlightened, compassion is only possible for a human being insofar that it enables the satisfaction of one's desires.

I think the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater here. You're telling me my wish to help others is no good until I am .. further .. enlightened?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I think the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater here. You're telling me my wish to help others is no good until I am .. further .. enlightened?

I never said it was no good. I'm simply trying to say that people of this world look out for number 1. And for some people, if trampling on another person to satisfy their desire outweighs the guilt they feel for doing it, they are going to do it. Being enlightened allows us to transcend this whole idea.

I've always thought of enlightenment as an all or nothing thing. Surrender is not 50%, 60% or even 99%. It's 100%

 

[kaat]

I never said it was no good. I'm simply trying to say that people of this world look out for number 1. And for some people, if trampling on another person to satisfy their desire outweighs the guilt they feel for doing it, they are going to do it. Being enlightened allows us to transcend this whole idea.

I've always thought of enlightenment as an all or nothing thing. Surrender is not 50%, 60% or even 99%. It's 100%

Good. This is where I'm differing from others here. When I had my brush with enlightenment, it did two basic things.
1) It revealed itself as the most powerful tool I've ever witnessed.
2) It solidified the personal commitment to compassionate living I had already made.

I had a brief look at my future with enlightenment, but that was secondary. I now feel equipped to make a serious difference to this world. I cannot do nothing with it.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I now feel equipped to make a serious difference to this world. I cannot do nothing with it.

Well, just remember not to get attached to the results while in the process. What kind of things would you like to change, specifically? How do you think you'll do it?

 

[kaat]

Well, just remember not to get attached to the results while in the process. What kind of things would you like to change, specifically? How do you think you'll do it?

I don't know how I will proceed. I wouldn't be hanging around here if I did. But I've had some bloody good ideas already, none of which would yield results in my lifetime (and that doesn't matter to me).

I wrote this as an illustration:

Go anywhere you want, because you belong there. Stay if you want. Go elsewhere if you want. Everywhere will be cosmopolitan. Everywhere will be transient. Everywhere will have a mixed core of long-term residents. Everyone will welcome everyone else. Nobody will have to live in difficult locations. Everywhere will be equal. Everywhere will develop it's own cultures. Violence will not be necessary. Anything we can do will be possible. And our true oneness will be in effect. That's what *I* want to try.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Go anywhere you want, because you belong there. Stay if you want. Go elsewhere if you want. Everywhere will be cosmopolitan. Everywhere will be transient. Everywhere will have a mixed core of long-term residents. Everyone will welcome everyone else. Nobody will have to live in difficult locations. Everywhere will be equal. Everywhere will develop it's own cultures. Violence will not be necessary. Anything we can do will be possible. And our true oneness will be in effect. That's what *I* want to try.

Looking at your first post, I have to ask, is your goal to enlighten others? If so, I'd have to say that some of this kind of sounds like a secondary effect. If you'd care to explain, what were some of your ideas?

 

[kaat]

Looking at your first post, I have to ask, is your goal to enlighten others? If so, I'd have to say that some of this kind of sounds like a secondary effect. If you'd care to explain, what were some of your ideas?

Not to enlighten others per se, but to create an enlightened world.

Are you sure you're doubting the plan (that I don't have yet), or is it the goal?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Not to enlighten others per se, but to create an enlightened world.

Then the enlightenment you speak of seems a bit superficial. Is the goal essentially to end suffering without necessarily enlightening?

Are you sure you're doubting the plan (that I don't have yet), or is it the goal?

I'm not doubting what I don't understand. I'm wondering what your "bloody good" ideas were just out of curiosity.

 

[kaat]

Then the enlightenment you speak of seems a bit superficial. Is the goal essentially to end suffering without necessarily enlightening?

Well, at least to give us more of an even playing field. I realize we animals will still do what we do. But a lot of unnecessary suffering will stop, yes.

I'm not doubting what I don't understand. I'm wondering what your "bloody good" ideas were just out of curiosity.

I'm not prepared to share them.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I'm not prepared to share them.

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

I'm sorry. I don't know why I do that....

Well, can you delve into why you cannot share them then?

 

[kaat]

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

I'm sorry. I don't know why I do that....

I don't either, lol.

Well, can you delve into why you cannot share them then?

Not really, but the main reason is because I'm not sure any of them will work.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Not really, but the main reason is because I'm not sure any of them will work.

No one can ever be certain, especially on such wide-sweep change that you are proposing. I've had some pretty lofty ideas for world change. The bottomline is that people are going to have to make the change themselves. Be the change that you want to see in the world, as Ghandi puts it. I think though that, like enlightenment, most of us are going to have to make the change after enduring immense pain. The question is: will it be too late for the world by the time we've endured enough?

 

[kaat]

No one can ever be certain, especially on such wide-sweep change that you are proposing. I've had some pretty lofty ideas for world change. The bottomline is that people are going to have to make the change themselves. Be the change that you want to see in the world, as Ghandi puts it. I think though that, like enlightenment, most of us are going to have to make the change after enduring immense pain. The question is: will it be too late for the world by the time we've endured enough?

I understand your skepticism; I am equally so. And wondering about "will it be too late" is inspiration to get going. My outlook is that there are techniques that can anticipate and address all likely events that a plan might encounter. The plan needs to be devilishly aware.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I understand your skepticism; I am equally so. And wondering about "will it be too late" is inspiration to get going. My outlook is that there are techniques that can anticipate and address all likely events that a plan might encounter. The plan needs to be devilishly aware.

HA HA HA HA HA HAAA!!!!

Stop messing with your avatar. I like the kitty's face the way it is.

You're going to have to fill me in on the details.

 

[kaat]

You're going to have to fill me in on the details.

Eventually. I must go and cook and relax now.