To those who understand enlightenment

[kaat]

Some have commented on the strange turn this thread took. Well, here's another one, possibly.

Most of my life, I considered myself an Agnostic. More recently, I thought I was a confirmed Atheist. But now, I am, in fact, a Believer - and this will not change.

Believer? ... in God. So I am "converted". But not through the typical divine realization - no - I literally "deduced" that God is real.

I deduced this not long after my initial enlightenment experience. I won't go into how right here. But I now believe in God. Solidly. What do I think God is? No idea. I will just call Him "management". I don't believe we are able to know the nature of God if we are mere mortals.

I am non-denominational, and will likely stay that way. As an example, I have no trouble accepting the God defined by Christianity, Islaam and Judaism. My "problem" with most religions is the dependence on human interpretations of His word. To me, they are problematic through the very touch of humanity.

This was another totally unexpected surprise, but an intensely beautiful one. I never, ever thought I would be a believer.

In terms of scripture I might hold dear, my current (and only) example is Psalm 23. To me, it says ALL that any believer, of any faith, needs to know. I'm sure there must be equivalents outside Christianity.

 

[Troublemane]

this kid reminds me of me !--furballs!

 

[kaat]

this kid reminds me of me !--furballs!

LOL - we kaats do prefer Furballs

 

[kaat]

Could anyone tell me a way to make a copy of the whole thread?

I want to be able to edit my bits for presentation elsewhere. I don't mind doing it page by page, but I thought I'd ask.

Thanks.

Also, the reason this thread seems rather fractured, is completely my fault. This was the right place for me to come to explore enlightenment, BUT, I soon had (at least!) two other thrusts that were less appropriate; (1) my "world unity" ideas, and (2) my other theories - the nature of reality, etc.. I truly apologize for this.

My next goal is to get some other eyes on (2) my theories. This is because in the right hands, it shouldn't take very long to determine if I have anything worthwhile or not. At that point, I could lay that work to rest, since it will either be debunked, or of interest to someone and in need of far greater expertise than I have anyway.

Further to that, all roads currently seem to point to me volunteering in some form or another. If it can be for my world unity platform, so much the better. Apart from looking for like-minded activists, maybe I will discover organizations already on that path. And I do mean, with their eyes on that highest prize of world unity.

I'm feeling that the exact nature of my enlightenment experience isn't that important. It's already served as blazing inspiration for these endeavors, and as my launch into compassionate living, and of course as my basis for believing in God. I find my ability to stay in the moment is still extraordinarily good, and the distractions that do hook me into the past and future are trivial and unwanted. Family is a big one - no newsflash there!

 

[kaat]

Please, don't let this become a totally one-man thread!

REFERRING BACK TO THIS:

"The true nature of reality.
And how to get around that problem."

It is:

That we will never fully understand anything, unless we allow our logic to be reversed, if only for a nanosecond. Once we do so, we can see that any dualities are NOT problems, but, in fact, choices. And, only our *right* choice will succeed. That everyone will realize this, is unlikely.

Happily, to make everything work properly, all we need to do, is believe that everything *can* work properly, and pursue that with all like-minded humans. And then, we'll realize that we did, indeed, want to relax, and live well. The evidence for needing to do this is already defined (Norman Vincent Peale): The Power Of Positive Thinking.

---

Firstly, that second paragraph is only one possible conclusion from the first paragraph. I used it to illustrate my world unity idea. But it could be used for absolutely any compassionate cause, smaller or larger. In this sense, it more or less just backs up the claims about "The Power Of Positive Thinking". In fact, it says that the success of compassionate action *depends* on positive thinking. Hence, the "tricky" part is *believing* in the desired outcome. This is the part from the first paragraph that refers to having one's logic reversed. It's worth remembering that "The Power Of Positive Thinking" ONLY makes ONE assertion: that you can train your own mind.

Now, if you have a good feel for that first paragraph, then you can explore a great many things from that point. I put some thought into God. The first thing I realized, is that "doing the right thing", as defined here is, in fact, one giant riddle. How could it possibly be so "difficult" and counter-intuitive to arrive at this "answer"? In a sense, this is a beautifully impossible theory that I happen to have coined. Indeed, for me, it is evidence for the existence of a higher power. If, of course, I'm right, this theory is complete, and might represent a certain pinnacle of reasoning. Reasoning that exposes this amazing riddle. So where did the riddle come from?

Certainly no humans were involved in encoding it's message. It is, therefore, a sign of this higher power. God. You can't really think this way about any other scientific theory, since no others are complete - no matter how amazing they are. Other theories have only ever done one thing: pose more questions. My claim is that my theory offers logical proof of the nature of things, AND the guide to living right. The theory itself has the voice of God built in.

And then I took it further ... and this is just wacky, loose thinking, nothing formal!

A higher power that can set things up this way can also do anything else it wants. If it's God as we have sometimes understood Him, then anything He creates is, in fact, perfect. I think this explains the enlightenment experience that "everything is as it should be", and the thinking that everything is returning to the source fits the perfect ideal. In other words, there is NO improvement to make; all is on the right path. This does, of course, allow us humans to get involved with things like genocide in the meantime.

So why the riddle? I have one working idea for this ... that for some reason, this God wanted to test that anything He created was, in fact, perfect. Perhaps our God was somehow "promoted" to His position and given His powers fresh. Imagine if his little test was to create a universe starting only with the biggest explosion he could muster? Of course, I refer to the big bang theory.

It's my feeling that when humans become more perfect, we will grasp and embrace the true Word of this creator. We will begin to acquire God-like traits ourselves. Now, if returning to the source is central, it *could* be that we do that in a physical sense, too. Some theories say that the universe will stop expanding, and begin contracting. Perhaps THAT is the start of the journey "home" to meet our maker. The beginning (and end?) of our universe has been described as a singularity. Sounds about right, doesn't it?

Would love to get your input on this.

 

[kaat]

I just put the above theory in front of 12 Canadian universities' arts and sciences departments.

I'll post all feedback I get ... I hope I get something!

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hi Kaat,


Your posts are too long to quote. This thread is all fuzzy warm, touchy feely, heartwarming, and too blissful to be viable. Let me enlighten you. Unless you live in the woods somewhere isolated from civilization, your philosophy will mean your destruction. Walk out the door and you are assaulted by self absorbed, self actuated type A's, who will run you over if given the chance. Even the supposedly "Meeks" will have you taken out if you misstep according to their agenda driven beliefs.

I woke up out of my stupor one day and decided my enlightenment was causing me to have to go around kissing everyone's hinny. I'm rather liking my role as a crotchety old man who isn't buying the baloney. I truly feel enlightened now.

All the best

Craig

 

[Troublemane]

"The true nature of reality.
And how to get around that problem."

It is:

That we will never fully understand anything, unless we allow our logic to be reversed, if only for a nanosecond. Once we do so, we can see that any dualities are NOT problems, but, in fact, choices. And, only our *right* choice will succeed. That everyone will realize this, is unlikely.

This is something like what Greg Bear wrote in his book, "Moving Mars", wherein he describes mathmatical objects called "scriptors" which determine outcomes of events. in that book there are an infinite number of alternate possible universes, but only one actual universe which continually arises from them. the actual comes about due to a kind of darwinian selection, so that the universe we see is just the average sum-over-histories of all possible universes. but sometimes random quirks manage to cross over from the virtual worlds into this one, and to some extent we can influence the outcome of what worlds will arise (due to the "butterfly effect").
But you are right, the odds are certainly stacked against the majority of people grasping this fact, that they are in control of their destinies.

Happily, to make everything work properly, all we need to do, is believe that everything *can* work properly, and pursue that with all like-minded humans. And then, we'll realize that we did, indeed, want to relax, and live well. The evidence for needing to do this is already defined (Norman Vincent Peale): The Power Of Positive Thinking.

Yes. When you see that life is but a dream, and everything is impermanent as an illusion, at first that may seem scary--but then realize that if its all a dream, its ok to just have fun with it.:rainbow1:

---

Firstly, that second paragraph is only one possible conclusion from the first paragraph. I used it to illustrate my world unity idea. But it could be used for absolutely any compassionate cause, smaller or larger. In this sense, it more or less just backs up the claims about "The Power Of Positive Thinking". In fact, it says that the success of compassionate action *depends* on positive thinking. Hence, the "tricky" part is *believing* in the desired outcome. This is the part from the first paragraph that refers to having one's logic reversed. It's worth remembering that "The Power Of Positive Thinking" ONLY makes ONE assertion: that you can train your own mind.

True, you do have to do some re-programming, because society and evolution have programmed us to deal with the immediate environment and not the subtle things. The voice of our intuition is so quiet it can easily be lost in the static, and takes a while to really tune into it. So , ya the mind must be trained but thats the result of meditation. The realization comes that the mind is like a caged monkey, screaming and running around constantly!

Now, if you have a good feel for that first paragraph, then you can explore a great many things from that point. I put some thought into God. The first thing I realized, is that "doing the right thing", as defined here is, in fact, one giant riddle. How could it possibly be so "difficult" and counter-intuitive to arrive at this "answer"? In a sense, this is a beautifully impossible theory that I happen to have coined. Indeed, for me, it is evidence for the existence of a higher power. If, of course, I'm right, this theory is complete, and might represent a certain pinnacle of reasoning. Reasoning that exposes this amazing riddle. So where did the riddle come from?

I see what you are saying here, I think...if reality is what we make of it, and we are free to chose anything, then by striving to do "the right thing" we are choosing the better of any two alternatives given to us at any point. I think maybe the less likely of two outcomes, because doing the "right thing" is always harder at first (almost like how climbing up a hill is harder than walking down it). So you are in effect saying that the choice was put there by God for us to find? Is that it?

Certainly no humans were involved in encoding it's message. It is, therefore, a sign of this higher power. God. You can't really think this way about any other scientific theory, since no others are complete - no matter how amazing they are. Other theories have only ever done one thing: pose more questions. My claim is that my theory offers logical proof of the nature of things, AND the guide to living right. The theory itself has the voice of God built in.

Thats very interesting.

And then I took it further ... and this is just wacky, loose thinking, nothing formal!

A higher power that can set things up this way can also do anything else it wants. If it's God as we have sometimes understood Him, then anything He creates is, in fact, perfect. I think this explains the enlightenment experience that "everything is as it should be", and the thinking that everything is returning to the source fits the perfect ideal. In other words, there is NO improvement to make; all is on the right path. This does, of course, allow us humans to get involved with things like genocide in the meantime.

here i am seeing an evolution in thought, it seems you are saying here that we have choices in outcomes, but no matter what the outcome for each part individually, the whole itself is always complete and perfect. I can agree with that.

So why the riddle? I have one working idea for this ... that for some reason, this God wanted to test that anything He created was, in fact, perfect. Perhaps our God was somehow "promoted" to His position and given His powers fresh. Imagine if his little test was to create a universe starting only with the biggest explosion he could muster? Of course, I refer to the big bang theory.

it has been suggested by some gnostics (way back about 2,000 years ago) that the creator god Ialdabaoth is in fact a child, and only created the universe out of ignorance.

It's my feeling that when humans become more perfect, we will grasp and embrace the true Word of this creator. We will begin to acquire God-like traits ourselves. Now, if returning to the source is central, it *could* be that we do that in a physical sense, too. Some theories say that the universe will stop expanding, and begin contracting. Perhaps THAT is the start of the journey "home" to meet our maker. The beginning (and end?) of our universe has been described as a singularity. Sounds about right, doesn't it?

hey kaat, heres a simple thought experiement to try. how familiar are you with einstein's theory of relativity?

ok, according to relativity, the faster you go the slower time passes for you. if you travelled .99 the speed of light you could get from here to alpha centauri in a few years (earth time) but ship time would only seem to take you a second. (that is, if you were accelerated to almost lightspeed instantly, what takes long is the acceleration and deceleration at the end of the trip).

so...as you approach lightspeed, time slows down, meaning space contracts. if it takes you less time (from your perspective) to get from point a to point b, isnt that the same as if point a and b just moved closer together?

so time and space contract as you approach lightspeed---what happens when you hit lightspeed? then all time goes to zero, all space goes to zero, and it appears as if the entire universe has contracted to a single point. i believe God exists at lightspeed, and is in all places at all times. its why people see a "light" as they die, because their minds are being freed from this timeframe and are seeing the one timeframe the entire universe operates on--lightspeed.

but again, its just a theory. it sounds like it ties in with your theory of god being a singularity, though. it makes sense to me! :angel2:

 

[kaat]

Hi Kaat,

Your posts are too long to quote. This thread is all fuzzy warm, touchy feely, heartwarming, and too blissful to be viable. Let me enlighten you. Unless you live in the woods somewhere isolated from civilization, your philosophy will mean your destruction. Walk out the door and you are assaulted by self absorbed, self actuated type A's, who will run you over if given the chance. Even the supposedly "Meeks" will have you taken out if you misstep according to their agenda driven beliefs.

I woke up out of my stupor one day and decided my enlightenment was causing me to have to go around kissing everyone's hinny. I'm rather liking my role as a crotchety old man who isn't buying the baloney. I truly feel enlightened now.

All the best

Craig

I do hear your warning, but I am so far unmoved. Maybe soon enough I'll agree - but not yet anyway.

 

[kaat]

This is something like what Greg Bear wrote ...

Troublemane, thank Goodness you are here! You manage to be encouraging, engaging, and critical, with the most reasonable approach. Clearly, your own thinking and reading is more studied than mine; all of this has been a happy accident for me!

True, you do have to do some re-programming, because society and evolution have programmed us to deal with the immediate environment and not the subtle things. The voice of our intuition is so quiet it can easily be lost in the static, and takes a while to really tune into it. So , ya the mind must be trained but thats the result of meditation. The realization comes that the mind is like a caged monkey, screaming and running around constantly!

I suppose in a sense, this represents both the golden goose and the great danger.

I see what you are saying here, I think...if reality is what we make of it, and we are free to chose anything, then by striving to do "the right thing" we are choosing the better of any two alternatives given to us at any point. I think maybe the less likely of two outcomes, because doing the "right thing" is always harder at first (almost like how climbing up a hill is harder than walking down it). So you are in effect saying that the choice was put there by God for us to find? Is that it?

Yes, yes and yes. Although this theory, if of value, could be used to approach many topics equally.

it has been suggested by some gnostics (way back about 2,000 years ago) that the creator god Ialdabaoth is in fact a child, and only created the universe out of ignorance.

For the longest time, I have thought there may be shreds of truth in ideas from many sources, many disciplines. As a kid, I wondered why ALL the different departments at universities weren't working together on the big questions. To me it's a similar "conflict" that explains how the allopathic and naturopathic worlds don't overlap, when they clearly "should".

hey kaat, heres a simple thought experiement to try. how familiar are you with einstein's theory of relativity? ...

This is amazing. I'll be giving it more thought. I know that among Einstein's great achievements is the very idea of thought experiments.

I think what you're pointing out is that this thought experiment gives reason to consider perceptions once more, and how important they are when no known absolute truth is present. This also defines my "hopes" with my own theories; they speak to perceptions, and ignore absolute truth.

And on the lighter side, I remember an ad campaign by the Mexican tourist board, that used a tag line something like "Mexico is getting closer all the time". After some months of seeing it, I wondered if it might be here yet.

 

[Troublemane]

Thank you kaat, its been a pleasure reading your posts. My name's Mike, pleased to meet you.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings Kaat. This thread is quite interesting. Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

Your interests in Enlightenment, living in the now, and world unity brings to mind the writings of Eckhart Tolle. His books address these topics as central themes and may be of interest to you if not read already. "The Power of Now" addresses living in the now, of course, and "A New Earth" addresses working towards unity on earth; both books address Enlightenment. It is interesting to note, if memory serves me correctly, that Tolle suggests beginning with one's self much as Zenzero suggested. As more and more people realize Enlightenment and live in unity within themselves, in unity with family and friends, and band with others of similar 'mind' (as you suggest) to spread the unity throughout all their influences, real impact can build.

For me personally, living in unity in the 'conventional world' as a being of non-dual wisdom (Enlightened) seems to be a life-long learning process that begins at home.

Best Wishes,
a..1

 

[kaat]

Greetings Kaat. This thread is quite interesting. Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

Your interests in Enlightenment, living in the now, and world unity brings to mind the writings of Eckhart Tolle. His books address these topics as central themes and may be of interest to you if not read already. "The Power of Now" addresses living in the now, of course, and "A New Earth" addresses working towards unity on earth; both books address Enlightenment. It is interesting to note, if memory serves me correctly, that Tolle suggests beginning with one's self much as Zenzero suggested. As more and more people realize Enlightenment and live in unity within themselves, in unity with family and friends, and band with others of similar 'mind' (as you suggest) to spread the unity throughout all their influences, real impact can build.

Hi a..1, and thanks. I'd like to read Tolle, and other suggested authors. For my own learning, and for the sake of dialog, I want to understand your last statement better:

For me personally, living in unity in the 'conventional world' as a being of non-dual wisdom (Enlightened) seems to be a life-long learning process that begins at home.

Best Wishes,
a..1

I can understand the life-long learning process - it seems to describe almost any personal endeavor. But it sounds to me like you're saying that enlightenment is only about striving for a personal goal, and that to wield the compassionate influence on the world at large, that one could have as a result, is not sound thinking. Buddhist teachings told me that there is no need for self-improvement - we already have everything we need. And I feel ready! It's entirely likely that I'm simply not understanding things here - can you help?

Thanks.

 

[autonomous1one1]

For me personally, living in unity in the 'conventional world' as a being of non-dual wisdom (Enlightened) seems to be a life-long learning process that begins at home.

.... I want to understand your last statement better:.... it sounds to me like you're saying that enlightenment is only about striving for a personal goal, and that to wield the compassionate influence on the world at large, that one could have as a result, is not sound thinking. ..... Thanks.

Greetings kaat. Glad to see you are still 'with' the thread. In view of your expressed interest, let me try to explain my statement better for it is meant in a much different light from the way it sounded to you.

Your prior posts indicate an awareness of the oneness realized with Enlightenment and for me personally the 'weilding of compassionate influence on the world at large is sound thinking derived from that oneness. (There are differing opinions of course.) In my view,' at a minimum the Enlightened one begins this 'weilding' just by being the one that is realized and that will always flow to those closest first. This participation in a dualistic world as such a being that has realized oneness takes wisdom which is a continual learning process for me.

Hope that helps rather than hinders.

Best Wishes,
a..1

 

[kaat]

Greetings kaat. Glad to see you are still 'with' the thread. In view of your expressed interest, let me try to explain my statement better for it is meant in a much different light from the way it sounded to you.

Your prior posts indicate an awareness of the oneness realized with Enlightenment and for me personally the 'weilding of compassionate influence on the world at large is sound thinking derived from that oneness. (There are differing opinions of course.) In my view,' at a minimum the Enlightened one begins this 'weilding' just by being the one that is realized and that will always flow to those closest first. This participation in a dualistic world as such a being that has realized oneness takes wisdom which is a continual learning process for me.

Hope that helps rather than hinders.

Best Wishes,
a..1

Definitely it helps, thank you.