To Those Whose Ears and Eyes and Hearts are Open

[loverofhumanity]

Does that include Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him?


And the people of Noah, -
when they rejected the messengers,
we drowned them,
and we made them as a sign for mankind; ... Sura 25:37

Yes most definitely. Muhammad is the Prophet of God. I wish to meet Him and offer a gift to Him.

 

[Tumah]

I read something entirely different. What I see people asking me to suspend my evaluation and reasoning which I use to reject a religion instead I should use appeals to emotions as a basis of my evaluation of a religion. Hence heart (emotion) rather than my mind. Of course such appeals can backfire when I find something emotionally horrible within a religions text(s).

I do think such ideas can work for those searching for a religion. However I doubt such a search is based on anything but emotions anyways.

I disagree that such a method is useful for someone searching for a religion. I think it will just lead to the person choosing whichever religion reaches him first. That's not really a search for the religion, that's a search for a religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I disagree that such a method is useful for someone searching for a religion. I think it will just lead to the person choosing whichever religion reaches him first. That's not really a search for the religion, that's a search for a religion.

I was just looking online at English translations of the Tanakh. I would like to buy one probably from Kindle. Do you know of any good English translations? A commentary with it would be preferable if possible.

 

[Tumah]

I was just looking online at English translations of the Tanakh. I would like to buy one probably from Kindle. Do you know of any good English translations? A commentary with it would be preferable if possible.

I don't use English translations so I don't know what is available for download. There is a translation available with a classic commentary online here as well as a (perhaps more useful) translation of just the Pentateuch here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't use English translations so I don't know what is available for download. There is a translation available with a classic commentary online here as well as a (perhaps more useful) translation of just the Pentateuch here.

Yes I was reading that one with the commentary by Rashi. I will buy the English, but it's not with the Rashi commentary. I also listened to a 24 minute commentary on Isaiah. So beautifully explained I was in tears.

How the gentiles one day will cease being hostile to the Jews. A king will appear Who will not need an army to enforce His Law but His Words will be so respected that all will obey. A king not from Assyria but from Davidic line through Jesse. Beautifully explained.

Your dream is my dream and it couldn't come too soon.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

That verse is saying that Isaiah will be a light to the nations. Israel/Jacob is the one who Isaiah will be raising up/returning through his prophecies. He is the light.

So again. You're complaining that we aren't living up to Christian standards based on Christian interpretations to our Scriptures.

Isaiah can do it all alone, eh?

Look, you shouldn't pretend that no Jews see it the same way...

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/Light-Unto-the-Nations.html

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

Those liars who call themselves "born again" Christians have no idea who God is and certainly they haven't heard My voice that is necessary to obtain the knowledge required to know what "born again" means.

I didn't know GOD himself was a member of RF...

 

[Tumah]

Isaiah can do it all alone, eh?

Does it say that he is meant to do it all alone? He fulfilled it in chapter 61.

Look, you shouldn't pretend that no Jews see it the same way...

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/Light-Unto-the-Nations.html

They are quoting 42:6, you quoted 49:6.
But regardless, no commentaries - including the ones quoted in your link - define Isaiah's statement as an imperative. There is no commentary that understand that G-d is commanding us to go out to the nations and bring them to Him. For the simple reason we only learn commandments from the books of the Torah and not the Prophets or Writings. So the commentaries that do understand these verses as speaking about Israel, don't understand that G-d is commanding us to go out and teach the nations, but that a natural consequence of our existence is that G-d becomes known. To quote your link:

The Netziv explains that this function could have been achieved by the Jewish people settling in Israel and inspiring the entire world through an awareness of the miraculous Divine Providence that guides the Jew in his land. We did not merit this. As a consequence, it became necessary to spread the knowledge of God by living among the nations and causing them to witness how we sacrifice ourselves for God's Name. Our survival as a solitary lamb among 70 hungry wolves points to the existence of a Divine Creator, whose Divine Providence guides and protects His nation.​

And that is why, as I said to you from the beginning, we are not required to go out and proselytize. Had G-d wanted us to do that, it would have been the 614th commandment. He didn't command this of us. And we don't do it.

 

[GodsVoice]

I didn't know GOD himself was a member of RF...

Every member in this forum is here because of the God ( MIND ) that controls them. Wait until they start hearing His voice, then they will learn who they really are.

 

[soma]

Quantum Physics reveals that the universe is united that there is no separation, uni-verse, one verse one vibration. Everyone has had experiences where they sense a strange vibe in a room or someone staring at them. This can be attributed to pattern-finding that is one key to our survival that we see patterns everywhere and sometimes the pattern of recognition is unconscious with automatic processes. Some call it intuition or sixth sense, fate, destiny or coincidence. Sensing danger or that someone is mad at you can also be a calling. Being in a relationship, loving another person makes one more sensitive to the other person’s needs unconsciously.

Most people report that at some time in their life they felt someone staring at them and when they turned their head sure enough eyes met theirs. Some people follow their instincts, gut feelings or hunches while on the negative side some are paranoid and follow their fear to create skepticism and doubts about everything. Fish react to fear because their calling is to be afraid in order to survive. The universe gives us what we need to meet our needs, our calling. Some are called to be teachers, some policemen, some scientist. If you change radio stations you will not hear clearly unless your radio is tuned to the right frequency. It is called synchronicity, a tuning into our needs and desires and receiving the signal either weak or strong to find our necessities.

 

[GodsVoice]

Quantum Physics reveals that the universe is united that there is no separation, uni-verse, one verse one vibration. Everyone has had experiences where they sense a strange vibe in a room or someone staring at them. This can be attributed to pattern-finding that is one key to our survival that we see patterns everywhere and sometimes the pattern of recognition is unconscious with automatic processes. Some call it intuition or sixth sense, fate, destiny or coincidence. Sensing danger or that someone is mad at you can also be a calling. Being in a relationship, loving another person makes one more sensitive to the other person’s needs unconsciously.

Most people report that at some time in their life they felt someone staring at them and when they turned their head sure enough eyes met theirs. Some people follow their instincts, gut feelings or hunches while on the negative side some are paranoid and follow their fear to create skepticism and doubts about everything. Fish react to fear because their calling is to be afraid in order to survive. The universe gives us what we need to meet our needs, our calling. Some are called to be teachers, some policemen, some scientist. If you change radio stations you will not hear clearly unless your radio is tuned to the right frequency. It is called synchronicity, a tuning into our needs and desires and receiving the signal either weak or strong to find our necessities.

Then there are a few of us who actually get to hear the voice of God speak to us and give us commands to obey until it reveals everything that has been hidden from us people who thought we were real people living on a real earth.

 

[viole]

Quantum Physics reveals that the universe is united that there is no separation, uni-verse, one verse one vibration. Everyone has had experiences where they sense a strange vibe in a room or someone staring at them. This can be attributed to pattern-finding that is one key to our survival that we see patterns everywhere and sometimes the pattern of recognition is unconscious with automatic processes. Some call it intuition or sixth sense, fate, destiny or coincidence. Sensing danger or that someone is mad at you can also be a calling. Being in a relationship, loving another person makes one more sensitive to the other person’s needs unconsciously.

Most people report that at some time in their life they felt someone staring at them and when they turned their head sure enough eyes met theirs. Some people follow their instincts, gut feelings or hunches while on the negative side some are paranoid and follow their fear to create skepticism and doubts about everything. Fish react to fear because their calling is to be afraid in order to survive. The universe gives us what we need to meet our needs, our calling. Some are called to be teachers, some policemen, some scientist. If you change radio stations you will not hear clearly unless your radio is tuned to the right frequency. It is called synchronicity, a tuning into our needs and desires and receiving the signal either weak or strong to find our necessities.

If that were true, security cameras would be completely useless.

Ciao

- viole

 

[GodsVoice]

If that were true, security cameras would be completely useless.

Ciao

- viole

God can see perfectly fine through the people He formed and makes them speak.

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

 

[1robin]

No. As you said, it would make subjective proof. The recognition of that should make one realize that this may not work for everyone. Additionally, without having seen or experienced anything outside what you have seen or experienced, you don't know whether or not its not possible to arrive at an equally compelling conclusion that is not your own using similar means. Not recognizing that points to a very limited mindset.

Actually let me restate what I did previously because I am not sure my hermeneutics were all they could have been. The average Christian, more than any other similar group of believers has the doctrinal foundation to experience God himself the moment he enters his relationship with Christ. If the Christian is honest and not deluding himself then what they experience is actually objective proof. However that proof (no matter how absolute and unmistakable) is not available to others who have not been born again. I am not sure what terms reflect those issues best but the terms I originally used must have not been sufficient because you drew a conclusion different from what I was attempting to point out.

Also keep in mind that this almost certainty is what a Christian is offering to others in their own lives. No other faith can make this type of claim across the board. I was not making any claim of equality for these propositions because no other faith has an equal promise in it's doctrines to this type of experience. You can affirm or deny the existence of this experience but you cannot deny the inequality of the doctrinal statements within faiths as to this experience.

Being as you noted above the correctness of that statement is subjective, there is no reason to assume others are incorrect. And if everyone is correct, then its not the method. So yes, it would be less reasonable.

I do not think that is what I stated here. I must have really bungled my language use in my post. I said that even if everyone on Earth made the exact same claim "if you diligently seek with an open heart you will find" that would not make the group who is right any less justified in making that claim. Also the correctness of a statement (even one in which others cannot access it's accuracy) is not subjective. A claim is absolutely correct or incorrect regardless of whether anyone knows which it actually is.

Sure it would. If the same or similar methodology works to cause people to variously become Muslim, Christian or Baha'i, then it would be unreasonable to assume that someone who uses this method would inevitably become Christian.

I disagree. If I said 2 + 2 = 4, I would first off either be objectively correct or objectively wrong. Secondly I would be no less right or no less wrong even if everyone claimed 2 + 2 was not equal to 4. Again I think the only point you could be right about would be to say that the person claiming 2 + 2 = 4 would be less persuasive if everyone said 2 + 2 was equal to something else, but that is a completely different issue.

This is not relevant to the OP. The question is not whether opening one's heart, lungs and kidneys whilst praying with a pure heart will lead to experiential hallucinations verification, but to belief in a given god.

Relevant to the OP is an opinion, but you may be more right about it than I. Regardless, I do not really understand you point about experience and faith. The greatest possible foundation for faith is to have a spiritual experience which is predicated on the message of a faith. I will wait for you to clarify before I add more here.

We are not writing off the claim here. Approaching something with an open mind is a wonderful way to become invested in all sorts of things, like glossolalia for example. What we are doing is saying that there is an underlying cause that makes praying with purity of heart work for a number of religions. Its not praying to with an open heart that brings one to believe in Jesus. Its praying with an open heart to Jesus that brings one to believe in Jesus. And praying to All-h with an open heart that brings one to believe in All-h, etc.

Glossolalia, may be something which a person may believe in but outside of a spiritual context it would be hard to do anything beyond agreeing or denying it occurs. Within a spiritual context a person may be able to go way beyond simple consent that it occurs but I think this is getting a little off track.

I have been a prayer councilor and while my sample size would not be huge the majority of people I know did not come to faith in Christ by praying. Instead we came to faith through a combination of argumentation, the personal revelation of others, observing the moral examples of many mature in their faith, historical investigation, and personal experience. IOW we accumulate a massive amount of evidence in many categories until we are in a condition for God to break into our lives and lead us to redemption. When we experience spiritual redemption and the new birth from above then that experience replaces even the arguments that led us to faith. From then on argumentation and evidence is merely how we commend our faith to other but our own faith is primarily founded in experience. That was probably a little off topic but I need to first explain what Christian faith is.

We;re not writing off the claims, we're modifying it to express its universality.

It sure appeared as if you were saying that since many claim that anyone who honestly and diligently investigates faiths in general then any individual doing so is wasting their time as they are no more right or wrong than any other. If that is not close to what you argued for then I cannot see what your argument is. Try this, let's say all your premise' were true, please provide your specific and emphatic conclusion.

That was not an appeal to popularity. I don't think you understood what I said. My point was not based on the billion people, but on the one or two within the billion people.

We seemed to have both misunderstood the other. I have attempted to clarify my own position, please do as I requested above and provide your emphatic and specific conclusion so that I may evaluate it.

I'm not sure what you are calling my last point here.

Ok, your last point was "Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?" Even though you put a question mark at the end, this appears to be a statement of belief. If it reflects your position then your begging the question. You seem intelligent so I will assume you know what begging the question is unless you indicate that you do not know what it means.

 

[Shad]

I disagree that such a method is useful for someone searching for a religion. I think it will just lead to the person choosing whichever religion reaches him first. That's not really a search for the religion, that's a search for a religion.

I disagree as one could find a number of emotionally objectionable ideas, lessons, etc in the first religion they explore.

What do you mean by "the" religion? Is it some form of "true" religion based on a believers point of view?

My comment was set in a backdrop of a scenario in which I am being told the "open heart" view of the OP. A dialogue

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

...

And that is why, as I said to you from the beginning, we are not required to go out and proselytize. Had G-d wanted us to do that, it would have been the 614th commandment. He didn't command this of us. And we don't do it.

Of course. Some things can't be commanded, rather should have been a result of the 613, but sadly, have not.

Jews don't share because Jews don't care. The Nations get the message clearly: Only Jews need worship the God of the Jews. Everyone else should look elsewhere.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

This 'shouldn't' bother you, in my opinion. If/since you aren't practicing Judaism, no reason to really care what some one else's opinion is, of your beliefs.

You do know I'm a convert, right? Have been for almost 30 years. 30 years of abuse, which I can't fight in RL, but can here. So ya, I 'practice' if going thru the motions qualifies. To some, that's all that's needed. I wanted more.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

No, I thought you dropped it for straight Noahidism.
I can understand that.

I can't drop it on a practical level, for the sake of my kids & spouse if nothing else.

On a personal level, I yearn for a workable Noachidism that I can find meaning in and more importantly share God with.

 

[Tumah]

I disagree as one could find a number of emotionally objectionable ideas, lessons, etc in the first religion they explore.

That's true, but with a sufficiently "opened enough" heart, one might be inclined to ignore those emotionally objectionable things.

What do you mean by "the" religion? Is it some form of "true" religion based on a believers point of view?

No, I was contrasting a person searching for any religion that would fill in the emotional/psychological needs, versus someone searching for a religion that seems to be true. In the former, most any religions will do and the searcher may not be inclined to actually search past the first religion that is presented to them. That's not really searching, I think.

My comment was set in a backdrop of a scenario in which I am being told the "open heart" view of the OP. A dialogue

As was mine.

 

[Tumah]

Of course. Some things can't be commanded, rather should have been a result of the 613, but sadly, have not.

You'll have to take your complaints up with the One above.

Jews don't share because Jews don't care. The Nations get the message clearly: Only Jews need worship the God of the Jews. Everyone else should look elsewhere.

I disagree. Discounting the past 2,000 years where doing such a thing would have been a quick ticket to death row, even were we incline to proselytize, we have a greater responsibility to our own nation, the majority of whom are often disconnected from Judaism. Which is why we do invest quite a bit in bringing Jews back to Judaism. Once we're done with our responsibility to our family, then we can talk about the neighbors. Until then, the message is out there and people are aware of it. Conversions happen all the time for those that are interested, and for those that don't want to go all the way, there's a growing Noahide movement.

So there doesn't seem to be a lot of water to what you're saying.