Plain reading of the Tanakh prophecies refer to one or more promised Messianic Kings who will restore Israel and bring peace.
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Torah in Christianity
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Repeating is not taking away.
Consider how Jesus could say that generation would not pass until all would be fulfilled.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled". Luke 17:25
But how could that happen if no signs were shown to that generation:
"And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation". Mark 8:12
Thats not contradicting. Consider all of the prophecies/signs in the Tanakh were fulfilled the moment they were spoken. So they were fulfilled in the time of that generation, just as they were fulfilled before that generation. The law and its signs are timeless, so any generation could see them happening.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That's not what we see. We see that the NT contradicts the Tanakh (OT). If a person genuinely and truly believes in the Old Testament, then they have to reject the New Testament.
Brian2
Veteran Member
There are differences between the Tanakh and the OT. Varying translations and the Jewish refusal to use any text other than the Masoretic has helped that situation.
And of course there seems to be different interpretations by Jews and Christians of the relevant text, and as far as I can see, the Christian interpretations are legitimate, along with the OT Christian translation.
But of course if I was a Jew I no doubt would say the same thing that you are saying.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
NT contradicts also itself.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!" (Mt 5:18)
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I disagree with your statement. My understanding of the OT is what forced me to accept the NT and beyond the cover of the Bible.
So can you actually show any examples of the contradictions that genuinely force the rejection of the NT?
I think whatever you are seeing as OT/NT contradiction is probably an OT explanation that can be verified.
Like this OT/OT
"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". Isaiah 2:4
And it also says the opposite:
"Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong". Joel 3:10
But consider if the plowshares are as swords, and the swords are as plowshares then there is no contradiction, it is an explanation.
If these two verses are talking about the positioning of the words then both verses are correct, and not contradicting each other.
As the Tanakh speaks of corn fields, oliveyards, and vineyards. And it also speaks of spears, swords, and bows.
Brian2
Veteran Member
What does that contradict?
Reference to this one citation is in and itself is part of the justification of the New Covenant of Christianity and the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Tanakh, which would be in contradiction with the Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish beliefs. You have to put this in perspective with the whole of the NT to see the contradictions.
Again . . . the plain reading of the prophecies of the Tanakh in Hebrew refer to Messianic Kings of Abrahamic lineage that will restore the Nation of Israel and bring peace,
The contradictions between the Tanakh and the NT run deeper than the above references without a universal perspective. In the plain reading of the the Tanakh refers to the prophecies and destiny of the Hebrews only. It is the Paulist argument to includes the gentiles and make the NT a Roman Hellenist compilation.
My beliefs put all the religions in the context of God's relation to humanity, and not selectively one text versus another, This assumption is based on the belief in a universal 'Source' some call God's in the spiritual evolution of humanity in the relationship with God in all cultures of humanity over the millennia and not one tribal belief over another. The ancient religions are grounded exclusively in their own beliefs and are in one way or another in conflict with other religions.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
In Genesis, God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of Satan's tree of knowledge of good and evil; law. How could something based on knowledge of good and evil; any form of law, be perfect, if it was made taboo to humans, via God himself? The analogy is your mother or father tells you not to hang with the street gangs and become a criminal. You ignore their wishes and become the head of the Mafia. Does this state of accomplishment, void your parents original request to not become involved in crime? Law can never atone for Adam and Eve, since it repeats their original sin.
How can something, not condoned; prohibited by God, ever be perfect? God wanted Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life, which was not about law, but about love, instinct, life and nature. Love, life and nature are integrating variables. Cells are integrated, the body has many integrated cells, and full animals integrate into eco-systems. Climate is integrated.
Law is a differentiating variable; good and evil. It separates, which is not how nature works. The Jews and Muslims separate themselves. Law perpetuates original sin, since accepting any and all forms of knowledge of good and evil is still an extension of the original sin.
The Tree of life was the implied choice of God for Adam and Eve. This is where Jesus headed. Jesus is often called the second Adam; make the choice of Adam, right, this second time by choosing life and not any law. Jesus fulfilled the law so we could get past original sin or the original denial of God that law was not good. The tree of life was taken away after Adam and Eve, chose the laws of Satan, less the laws of Satan spoil the tree of life. If we add a differential variable of good and evil to integrated ecosystems, they will become dysfunctional; man made selection based on subjective and not objective natural selection from creation.
God rested on the seventh day. How long did God's rest last? This is not clear cut. The Sabbath of humans is in the image of the Divine Sabbath. We need to rest and not work, like God did not work, on the seventh day. It appears Satan was placed in charge of humans, after the fall of Adam and Eve, as God stopped work and rested. Satan was the appointed CEO or prince of the earth, as God rested.
It is not until Revelation, that God creates a new Heaven and Earth. This appears to be day eight when the rest ends; Sunday. God is needed for epic creation, like a new Heaven and Earth. He was not needed for maintenance on an otherwise integrated creation. Day seven was a good place to take a rest. What was thought to be the direct line to the God of the Old Testament, appears to have been mediated by Satan and his law; knowledge of good and evil. This led to plenty of suffering. The suffering was not from God, but his CEO in charge of the humans. Satan may be still in charge of mist humans, due to continued use of law of good and evil. Do not expect peace or life.
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TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Not if you believe Jeremiah 31:31 and other verses.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The things of the Law were fulfilled/accomplished. That's part of the reason it's impossible to even keep all of those things anymore.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The Messiah accomplished all he was to accomplish. Sometimes people put there own opinions on what had to be accomplished and then try to claim it wasn't done.
This your belief drom the cultural Christian perspective, but the reality it is in extreme conflict with the Hebrew Tanakh. In reality Jesus offered no Messianic Kingship for the Nation of Israel as prophesied.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Again, I find it incredibly strange to hear a Christian acknowledge that the messages are different, and yet you still want the OT to be in your Bible. It seems logical to me that if they have different messages, they cannot both be from God.
I don't know if this is helpful or not. But some people assert Quran is enough and sufficient, but the angle Quran is sufficient and enough, is when it's coupled with the leaders from God: the Prophet, Fatima, and the Twelve Imams. And even if we try to follow both, it won't guide us, unless we help one another and that some of the more capable of us carry with more commanding to good and forbidding of evil, and put major effort. Not enough effort and hardly anyone cares for the criteria of justice to be fulfilled. So somethings are needed if there will be guidance of people. But they alone don't guarantee.
I don't know how it's possible a text itself be sufficient when things change in real time, new occurrences happen, and situation changes. What does the Torah say about healthcare for example. I am guessing it says something, but not in detailed explicit manner.
But even if it was explicit, and detailed, that is not enough. You need in real time application of it and people rallying around it.
The way I understand is the Quran says Torah was perfect so long as the Prophets that judged by it were among the people and it was meant they rule and rituals with them on top of authority and government. The Gospels annulled it to a great degree, because there was no longer going to be anointed kings from God in public till Mohammad (s).
The Quran takes a middle ground and Sunnah takes middle ground, in that, it's meant for both times.
However, it's intensely complicated as you see - even if Quran is clear in a thing, without the leader from God in public, it's often not seen by majority of humans.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Their basic messages are different. The Tanakh teaches the importance of obedience to God--it is concerned with what you DO. The New Testament teaches salvation from hell through faith in Jesus--it is concerned with what you believe. The great concern of Christianity is salvation, and I think that Christians in general tend to assume that Jews are also concerned about salvation, but that we just go about it a different way -- this is just not true.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Just a reminder, when you reference a verse, please quote it. The onus to make your point is on you -- it is not the job of your interlocutor to go look anything up.
Now let's talk about Jeremiah 31 and the new covenant. Your remark implies that Jews do not accept this verse. That is not the case, and so to prevent you from misrepresenting us again in the future, I'm going to ask you to pay very close attention.
First, this New Covenant is made with the People of Israel, not everyone in the world.
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
Next, we know the New Covenant has not happened yet, because it describes how things will become, and these things simply haven't happened yet. I will give two examples.
33 ...I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
Yet the law is NOT written on the hearts of Israel. We still have to teach our kids right from wrong.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
Yet all Jews do NOT know God -- there are plenty of Jews who are atheist. The text doesn't say some, or even most, but that ALL will know God.
So you see, Jews have some very good text based reasons why we understand Jeremiah 31 quite differently. It follows that you cannot claim that "believing in Jeremiah 31:31" automatically makes one embrace the NT.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Judaism is evolved religion, it developed after the revelation of God to Abram. The Torah was developed and written by Israelites for Israelites. It became a stunted nationalist religion all about being gods “chosen people”.
Jesus revealed God the Father in greater detail, he introduced ALL mankind as sons’s of God, not a self described “chosen people”. The religion of Jesus was a dedication to Gods will, a change of heart if needed. But after Jesus left a new Gospel of Peter and Pauls speculation replaced the original.
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