Torah in Christianity

[shunyadragon]

And yet the Jews who want to remain under the Mosaic Covenant and Law still remain, and will remain until all is accomplished. For them, the law does not change and for those under the New Covenant, they fulfil the Law by being led by the Spirit and loving God and neighbour.

Yes the Christians believe this, but in direct contradiction to the Jewish Tanakh. It is their book in their language.

 

[Brian2]

The plain reading of ALL the prophecies refer to one or more promised Messianic Kings to lead Hebrews to restore the Nation of Israel.

Jesus DID NOT fulfill these prophecies.

Jesus died and was raised from the dead, to never die again, and is to return to finish the work that was begun 2000 years ago and is continuing even now.
If you don't believe the New Testament and only believe Jewish interpretations of the OT, that might explain our differences of opinion about this.

 

[Brian2]

Yes the Christians believe this, but in direct contradiction to the Jewish Tanakh. It is their book in their language.

How does the Christian belief contradict the Jewish Tanakh?

 

[PearlSeeker]

I did provide the verse where Jesus instructed his apostles to go into ALL the world!

Have you thought about the possibility of interpolation?

Is The Trinitarian, Baptismal Formula In Matthew 28:19 An Interpolation?

The main biblical text Christians cite for their Trinity doctrine is a baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19. Some scholars doubt its legitimacy, suspecting it is a later interpolation. My favorite NT scholar, Catholic Raymond Brown, is one. He thinks it was inserted for liturgical reasons.

www.patheos.com

 

[PearlSeeker]

The arrogance of the Israelites was such that they were simply not going to share their God equally with the Gentile world.

Then Jesus was also arrogant:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 

[Firenze]

This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

Christianity is the result of a decision to spit on the Torah and invent a completely new religion while using the authority of Judaism to piggy back on. The Torah tells everyone what the attributes of the Messiah will be. The gospel authors threw those out and made up their own. Every Jew on the planet knows what the honest attributes are, and that they do not include:

A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
Any divine attributes.

Jews pushing back on the fraud of Christianity is what led to them being demonized - and murdered - ever since. Christianity, now a multi trillion dollar scam - has much to answer for.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Firenze]

If I may join your debate. Yes, (in the gospels) Jesus preached to Jews but there are some examples that could be interpreted as a prophecy that the Jews will reject him and Gentiles will take their place e. g. The parable of the marriage feast.

Well of course it does! That's the whole point of Christianity. The original marketing targets for this invented religion were pagans, since the earliest church utterly failed to convince learned Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. And let's not pretend Christianity cares one whit or tittle about the Jews. The book of John is one long antisemitic screed. Hell, you have posters here demonizing Jews for their 'arrogance'.

 

[Colt]

Then Jesus was also arrogant:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Thats how the Jewish authors of scripture retold the story.

If Jesus & company only preached for Jews, then this was also directed at some of them: "Present not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample your gems under foot and turn to rend you".

 

[Colt]

Have you thought about the possibility of interpolation?

Is The Trinitarian, Baptismal Formula In Matthew 28:19 An Interpolation?

The main biblical text Christians cite for their Trinity doctrine is a baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19. Some scholars doubt its legitimacy, suspecting it is a later interpolation. My favorite NT scholar, Catholic Raymond Brown, is one. He thinks it was inserted for liturgical reasons.

www.patheos.com

"Go into all the world" was my focus, not the Trinity. That is in fact what they did. Jesus was almost completely rejected by his own people then and today.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thats how the Jewish authors of scripture retold the story.

Which Jewish authors? When? Evidenced where?

Or is your assertion just another case of Jew-hatred seepage?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you accept the Tanakh says that the words are not being heard correctly? Seems to be stated multiple times.
There would be no difference between those that can't hear what to do, and those that can't hear what to believe.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "the Tanakh says that the words are not being heard correctly." It would have helped if you had provided a reference or two.

Your remark seems to indicate that the Tanakh is not accurate. I would agree with that. I greatly, greatly value the Tanakh, just as I do the Talmud and the writings of the sages, because these are the sacred texts of my people. But although the authors did their best to record what God is like and what God's wishes are, in the end, they are still just men and make mistakes, historically, scientifically, and even morally.

This, however, seems to be an entirely different topic than the one we are discussing, which is that the Tanakh and the NT are fundamentally at odds with each other.

If prophets (men) in the Tanakh spoke the word of God, and Jesus states multiple times he says what he is told to say.

Like here:
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". John 12:49

Then what's the problem?

None of this addresses my point. I'm not sure what your reason for posting this was.

Do you think "the marriage of the lamb" prophecy of the NT is made up?

Yes, it is made up. I stopped reading the rest of your post at this point, since you clearly weren't replying to anything I said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you believed God confirmed whom Jesus is by raising Him from the dead then I imagine it would not be too hard to see the Christian interpretations are correct, as other Jews have done.

There are more Jews who are atheists than who believe in Jesus. Throwing in "If you believed...as other Jews have done" does NOT give more credibility to the idea that Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thats how the Jewish authors of scripture retold the story.

We don't know who wrote Matthew Mark Luke and John. What makes you think they were Jews?

 

[Colt]

Which Jewish authors? When? Evidenced where?

Or is your assertion just another case of Jew-hatred seepage?

The New Testament authors, when they wrote it, evidenced in the writings they left behind.

Read the Torah, the Israelites didn’t treat other cultures very nicely at all! The bigotry towards non-Jews is evidenced on this thread.

IndigoChild5559 said:
Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The New Testament authors, when they wrote it, evidenced in the writings they left behind.



Read the Torah, the Israelites didn’t treat other cultures very nicely.

What evidence do you have that the various authors of the gospels were Jews?

 

[Colt]

We don't know who wrote Matthew Mark Luke and John. What makes you think they were Jews?

You rely on the same books in your claim that Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews? If those books aren’t a reliable source then recant your claim!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You rely on the same books in your claim that Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews? If those books aren’t a reliable source then recant your claim!

You are correct. When I say Jesus never preached to the goyim, that is making a statement about the legends of him. It is not making a statement about history.

 

[blü 2]

This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

One problem with basing all one's religious belief on the Torah is that it covers the polytheist / henotheist part of Jewish history. As you likely know, monotheism isn't declared until after the Babylonian captivity.

The best-known example is the commandment, Thou shalt have no other gods before me (instead of "Ain't no other gods"). Other examples are found in Exodus 15:11, 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7, Numbers 33:4, Psalms 82:1, 86:8, 95:3, 135:5 &c. My personal favorite, because it admits of no ambiguity, is

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.​

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "the Tanakh says that the words are not being heard correctly." It would have helped if you had provided a reference or two.

Some references:

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Jermiah 5:21

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isaiah 6:9

And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. Isaiah 29:18

Does that help?

Your remark seems to indicate that the Tanakh is not accurate. I would agree with that. I greatly, greatly value the Tanakh, just as I do the Talmud and the writings of the sages, because these are the sacred texts of my people. But although the authors did their best to record what God is like and what God's wishes are, in the end, they are still just men and make mistakes, historically, scientifically, and even morally.

This, however, seems to be an entirely different topic than the one we are discussing, which is that the Tanakh and the NT are fundamentally at odds with each other.

But I do think the Tanakh is very accurate. I don't know where you got the idea from that I don't.

The Tanakh and the NT are not at odds with each other.

None of this addresses my point. I'm not sure what your reason for posting this was.

If God speaks through a man (prophet) as in the Tanakh, is it God speaking, or a man. Then why accept Tanakh prophets as speaking the word of God, but not Jesus.

Yes, it is made up. I stopped reading the rest of your post at this point, since you clearly weren't replying to anything I said.

Can you please read it. I am trying to show you why it is clearly not made up. If you have any questions about what I say or require further clarification I can do so.

I showed you the wife is as the grape vine (Wine), is as a sheep.

I can also show the Cattle are as the Corn:
For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9

And the Goat is as the Oil:

Here the Goat is in the Wilderness position:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22

Just as the Olive Oil tree is in the Wilderness position:
I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: Isaiah 41:19

Look at this word positioning:

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

So as you can see above the Sheep is as the Wine, the Goat is as the Oil, and the Cattle is as the Corn (Bread).

Can you not hear the words corn, oil, and wine?

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22


So the wife (position) being the grape vine (Wine position) is also the Sheep (position).
Therefore "the marriage of the lamb" is not just made up nonsense. It is in perfect alignment with what the Tanakh is saying.

Thats what I was trying to show you. Please try to listen.

 

[Brian2]

There are more Jews who are atheists than who believe in Jesus. Throwing in "If you believed...as other Jews have done" does NOT give more credibility to the idea that Jesus rose from the dead.

Jews are only Jews biologically if they are atheists. Is God pleased with them?
The stumbling block for Jews is Jesus and His claim about whom He is, the Son of God who was sent from heaven to be the atoning sacrifice (Isa 53) and who will come again to judge the earth and rule on the throne of David. (Isa 9:6,7)
Psalm 98:8 Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy 9before the LORD, for He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness and the peoples with equity.
Acts 17:31 For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead."