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Train tracks and god

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Alright... so... there are two sets of railroad tracks, and Allah stands at the fork, at a lever that controls which track the train will travel on. On one track there is a child, obliviously chasing a butterfly, and on the other track are three old men bickering whose hearing is poor enough that they don't hear the train coming. Which track does Allah send the train on?

I got this idea from this thread.

I think a lot of believers feel they cannot think like god, question god, or know what he will and will not do. How would one try to put themselves in line with god.

When something goes wrong and a believer find it hard to explain, it's god's timing. A lot of the bad things that happens in this world either from the perspective of god testing us, god watching, from sin, or just not involved as we expect, there is still a consensus that "god will handle it."

If you're on a train track and child is on one side of the fork and three old men bickering on the other which direction would you pull the lever?

If you pull it in either direction would that mean you're playing god?

Is it better to let the train go by itself and whoever it hits is "god's will" or fate?

What would you do (or not do) and why?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
If you're on a train track and child is on one side of the fork and three old men bickering on the other which direction would you pull the lever?

I'd pull out my phone and start a thread about the problem of evil and the trolley problem on RF, obviously. Then my hands would be too busy to pull the lever in either direction.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Seriously, though, this is one question where I can confidently say I don't know how I'd act in that situation. To me, all innocent lives are equal, so the child's life and the three men's lives, unless they were serial killers or something, would be equal to me. What I can be fairly sure of is that I would probably feel traumatized or experience profound unease long after the situation had ended.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I solved this issue ages ago - one switches the points whilst the train is over them, thus derailing the train and not harming any - apart from those onboard the train perhaps. :oops:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Wouldn't that be playing god?

He knows what's best?
A wise King once wrote.....
“I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle, nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all. 12 For man does not know his time. Just as fish are caught in an evil net and birds are caught in a trap, so the sons of men are ensnared in a time of disaster, when it suddenly overtakes them.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12)

God is not playing anything......he does not interfere with our free willed choices....none of know where our choices will take us anymore than someone heading off to work like they do every day, gets taken out by a drunk driver....wrong place, wrong time. God does not dictate these things.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
A wise King once wrote.....
“I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle, nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all. 12 For man does not know his time. Just as fish are caught in an evil net and birds are caught in a trap, so the sons of men are ensnared in a time of disaster, when it suddenly overtakes them.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12)

God is not playing anything......he does not interfere with our free willed choices....none of know where our choices will take us anymore than someone heading off to work like they do every day, gets taken out by a drunk driver....wrong place, wrong time. God does not dictate these things.

But what about the lever in the train. If god is the one controlling it all, then would it be the fault of the person to choose which persons the train should hit or should the person let the train go whether it hits the child or two men arguing?

If there were intervention based on the morals of the person, wouldn't that be playing god whose morals are better than humans?

Going by the OP.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But what about the lever in the train. If god is the one controlling it all, then would it be the fault of the person to choose which persons the train should hit or should the person let the train go whether it hits the child or two men arguing?

If there were intervention based on the morals of the person, wouldn't that be playing god whose morals are better than humans?

Going by the OP.
Solomon told us that God does not interfere in our choices. Therefore there is no lever. God is controlling nothing....we are, but there is someone behind the scenes trying to influence our choices. (1 John 5:19)

By our choices we determine our own future.
Being in the wrong place at the wrong time or just being the victim of our own or other’s mistakes will determine who lives and who doesn’t. God is allowing us to be caught in the act of being ourselves.....how wise he is. He does not need to do anything but provide us with guidance, which is contained in his written word.

No one gets out of this world alive.....we will all die some time , some way and somehow. Most of us don’t get to decide which.

But God has the power to restore lives lost, which he promises to do once the “lesson” is over. (John 5:28-29) No one loses except those who tell God to get lost by rejecting his messengers. That was a choice you see.

God does not really need to judge us.....we judge ourselves by showing our Creator who we really are, with no intervention or coercion from him. He is choosing subjects for his Kingdom.....we can be among them if we want to.....it’s an offer....take it or leave it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Solomon told us that God does not interfere in our choices. Therefore there is no lever. God is controlling nothing....we are, but there is someone behind the scenes trying to influence our choices. (1 John 5:19)

By our choices we determine our own future.
Being in the wrong place at the wrong time or just being the victim of our own or other’s mistakes will determine who lives and who doesn’t. God is allowing us to be caught in the act of being ourselves.....how wise he is. He does not need to do anything but provide us with guidance, which is contained in his written word.

No one gets out of this world alive.....we will all die some time , some way and somehow. Most of us don’t get to decide which.

But God has the power to restore lives lost, which he promises to do once the “lesson” is over. (John 5:28-29) No one loses except those who tell God to get lost by rejecting his messengers. That was a choice you see.

God does not really need to judge us.....we judge ourselves by showing our Creator who we really are, with no intervention or coercion from him. He is choosing subjects for his Kingdom.....we can be among them if we want to.....it’s an offer....take it or leave it.

That would mean the child or men who may die it is in god's timing and place? (If there is no lever)

What does it mean for you to watch which side god let's the train run?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That would mean the child or men who may die it is in god's timing and place? (If there is no lever)

What does it mean for you to watch which side god let's the train run?
I don't think you understand UA.....There is no train...there is no lever. God is not deciding anything...he is simply allowing the humans to reap what they have sown....standing back and observing...but not interfering in what they chose for themselves. Is he saddened by the suffering and death of any of his creatures? Of course, as Jesus said..."Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge." (Matthew 10:29)

According to my studies, God gave us life here on this earth and intended it to be our permanent home......but in granting free will, he did not intend for it to be absolutely free because he is the only one who knows how to drive it so that no harm would come to his creation. He would do so by shielding his children from all evil....and even a knowledge of it, thereby maintaining their innocence. Yet the actions of one spirit creature who abused his free will, tempted others to do the same...both in heaven and on earth, forcing the Creator to put his intended purpose on hold, and deal with the rebellion in a way that ensured that it could never happen again.

Right from the start, God warned these humans that abusing free will would result in their death. They were not free to choose between good and evil themselves because oftentimes, what seems good....sometimes isn't.....and likewise what seems bad...sometimes isn't. It was not to be left up to humans to make that call. Obedience to a wise Father would mean continued life in perfect health and happiness with nothing and no one causing any harm.....that was the original plan anyway.....

But once 'the genie was out of the bottle' (so to speak) there was no putting it back, so the humans were permitted to live the life they chose and the ruler they chose as well....independence from God was to be put to the test. Was a knowledge of good and bad something beneficial as the devil had suggested? Would they be better off with this knowledge.....or not? Time would tell.

What has history shown concerning our ability as individuals and as a society to make wise choices concerning the difference between good and bad? Our ability to govern ourselves successfully has been tested down through many ages and forms of self-rule...but to date, nothing has been successful in bringing about a cohesive society who can use their free will in a way that does no harm to themselves or others.

God tried to tell us...but in the end it was better to show us where self-determination would lead us.....I believe that we are close to the end of the lesson now, as we are locked into features of the "sign" that Jesus gave indicating his return as judge of all the world.

When the judgment is over and the results of the lessons are recorded for all eternity to come, God will then usher all those who remained faithful to him, back to the paradise conditions that he planned for us in the beginning. Their names are written in his "Book of Life" because they have a record of faithfulness throughout the period of the lesson....but those who don't, will have no future at all. (Revelation 20:15) They have not qualified for their place in God's Kingdom.

So in the end....the paradise we lost in the beginning, is returned to us and the life we were meant to live becomes a reality. (Revelation 21:2-4)
That is how I see the Bible's message.
 
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WonderingWorrier

Active Member
I got this idea from this thread.

I think a lot of believers feel they cannot think like god, question god, or know what he will and will not do. How would one try to put themselves in line with god.

When something goes wrong and a believer find it hard to explain, it's god's timing. A lot of the bad things that happens in this world either from the perspective of god testing us, god watching, from sin, or just not involved as we expect, there is still a consensus that "god will handle it."

If you're on a train track and child is on one side of the fork and three old men bickering on the other which direction would you pull the lever?

If you pull it in either direction would that mean you're playing god?

Is it better to let the train go by itself and whoever it hits is "god's will" or fate?

What would you do (or not do) and why?


What subject are the three old men bickering about?
What does the child want to do to the butterfly?


The gathering of information might tell me something that I didn't know.
The more I know about the others, the more I will know about myself.

That is what I would do, and why.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What subject are the three old men bickering about?
What does the child want to do to the butterfly?


The gathering of information might tell me something that I didn't know.
The more I know about the others, the more I will know about myself.

That is what I would do, and why.

The person I took this from didn't give details. The idea is you have a child and adult, who do you save.

Do we need to know who people are to think about their lives and wellbeing?

And if we choose one or the other would we play God or let god pick one without our intervention?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sounds way more useful and thoughtful than God.

Seems to me that "playing God" would mean doing absolutely nothing, and then let people like yourself and @Deeje argue that apathy is actually wise and moral (but only when the apathy is God's).

Not sure what you're getting at. I don't believe God exist and never answered my own question. Not sure how I agree or disagree with Dejee, 99% of religious topics I disagree.

Could you give me a idea of where you drew that conclusion???
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not sure what you're getting at. I don't believe God exist and never answered my own question. Not sure how I agree or disagree with Dejee, 99% of religious topics I disagree.

Could you give me a idea of where you drew that conclusion???
My mistake, then. I thought you were Baha'i... no?
 
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