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Transcending space-time 'Interstellar' style and 'Yoga Vasistha' style

atanu

Member
Premium Member
INTRODUCTION
Modern physics not only strikes at the root of the notion of linear time and space but raises questions about validity of ‘realism’ that there is an objective world out there.

Purpose of this post is to contrast the concept of reality found in Vedanta and the story of time dilation and communication across different space-time frameworks, shown in Christopher Nolan’s film Interstellar. I will use the story of Lila found in Yoga Vasishta to exemplify the same concepts from the Vedanta point of view.

Christopher Nolan’s 2014 science fiction film ‘Interstellar’ uses the concepts of Relativity and time dilation to tell a story of how a father-daughter duo communicate across two different space-time frameworks to save the humanity from extinction. Father, Joseph Cooper, is played by Matthew McConaughey.

SUMMARY OF THE PLOT OF INTERSTELLAR
The story is set in a dystopian future, 2067. Humanity is struggling to survive crop blights and dust storms, which are slowly rendering the earth inhabitable. In this scenario, somewhere about the American Midwest, lives Cooper, an ex-pilot, with his daughter Murphy and son Tom. After a dust storm, strange dust patterns inexplicably appear on Murphy's bedroom floor. Murphy attributes the anomaly to a ghost activity. Cooper, however, deduces that the patterns represent geographic coordinates and follows the coordinates to a NASA facility, which is headed by Professor John Brand.

Professor Brand is seen working on plans to save mankind. He shares that 48 years earlier, unknown beings positioned a wormhole near Saturn, opening a path to a distant galaxy with twelve potentially habitable worlds located near a black hole named Gargantua. 12 volunteers had traveled through the wormhole to individually survey the planets. Three astronauts had reported positive results. Based on their data, Professor Brand conceived two plans: developing a gravitational propulsion theory to propel settlements into space (Plan A), and/or launching the Endurance spacecraft carrying 5,000 frozen human embryos to settle a habitable planet (Plan B).

Cooper is asked to pilot the Endurance with three other scientists, including Dr. Amelia Brand (Professor Brand's daughter) and two robots and the frozen embryos into the wormhole with the mission to chose the suitable habitable planet from among the three potential planets earlier identified by astronauts Mann, Edmunds, and Miller.

After traversing the wormhole, the crew investigate the three planets earlier found potentially habitable and eventually find Edmund’s planet to be habitable.

Meanwhile Murphy, now a scientist working with NASA, had transmitted a message announcing Professor Brand’s death. She has learned that Plan A, which required unattainable data from within a black hole, was never viable and that Plan B was always Professor Brand's only option. She was furious thinking of a permanent separation from her father.

Two scientists on board and an earlier astronaut Mann die during this time, leaving only Cooper and Dr. Brand along with two robots. With insufficient fuel to reach Edmunds' planet, Cooper uses a slingshot manoeuvre so close to Gargantua. Due to the proximity of the black hole, time is severely dilated to the extent of about 80 years vis-a-vis earth’e time. Cooper and TARS eject themselves out of Endurance to shed weight and to propel Endurance to Edmunds' planet. Slipping through the event horizon of Gargantua, they eject from their respective craft and find themselves inside a massive tesseract, constructed by future humans inside the singularity.

Across different time periods, Cooper can see through the bookcases of Murphy's old room on Earth and weakly interact with its gravity. Cooper realises he was Murphy's “ghost". Cooper ‘transcends' the dimensions of space and time, and transmits the quantum data that TARS collected from inside the event horizon using a watch and Morse code. Back on Earth and further back in time, Murphy realises it was her father from the future communicating with her. She deciphers the Morse code and solves the gravitational propulsion theory for Plan A, enabling humanity's mass exodus and survival.

Cooper and TARS are ejected from the tesseract and Cooper lands somewhere near Saturn. Cooper, who has not aged due to time dilation meets briefly with an 80 plus year old Murphy, who is nearing her death.

Cooper and TARS finally take a spacecraft to rejoin Amelia Brand and CASE on Edmunds' habitable planet.

SUMMARY OF THE STORY OF LILA FROM YOGA VASISHTA
Yoga Vasishta is a respected scripture from the Advaita tradition. The book contains many stories narrated by sage Vasishta to Prince Rama, as a way of teaching, to dispel prince’s gloom and depression. The story of Lila, which I will summarise below is famous.

Once upon a time, King Padma and queen Lila lived an ideal life; enjoying in every possible and righteous way. They were young and youthful and their love for each other was pure and intense, without hypocrisy or artificiality. One day, the queen Lila thought "The most handsome king who is my husband is dearest to me than even my own life. What should I do that he and I may live forever enjoying the pleasures of life?”

Lila then propitiated goddess Saraswati, deity of knowledge. Pleased, the goddess Saraswati appeared before her and granted her boons of her choice. Lila prayed "O Divine Mother, grant me two boons: (1) when my husband departs from his body, let the jiva (soul) remain in the palace and (2) whenever I pray to you, let me see you. Saraswati granted these two boons and disappeared. Time passed and eventually King Padma was mortally wounded on the battlefield and died in the palace. Queen Lila was inconsolable with deadliest of grief, when the ethereal voice of Saraswati said: "My child, cover the king's body with flowers. Lila obeyed and asked her "Pray, tell me where my husband is”.

Saraswati said "O Lila, there are three types of spaces: the psychological space; the physical space; and the infinite space of consciousness, the last being the most subtle. By intense meditation on this infinite space of consciousness you can see and experience the presence of one (like your husband) whose body is that infinite space, even though you do not see him here.”

Lila meditated and by the grace of the Goddess entered the highest state of consciousness free from all distractions. In the infinite space of consciousness, she saw the king once again, on a throne, surrounded by many kings who adored him -- but they did not see her. She wondered “Are they all dead too?” Again she came back to her normal consciousness in her palace and saw her attendants asleep. Lila was puzzled. She mused "This is strange, for these people seem to exist in two places at the same time; in that region which I saw in my meditation and here in front of me — Just as a mountain is seen both inside the mirror and outside it” she thought “I must find out from Saraswati.”

Goddess appeared and after a philosophical discussion, she showed Lila two other realms wherein Lila and her husband exist/existed.

In the first realm, Goddess took Lila to a small hut atop a mountain where eight days ago a brahmin named Vasishta and his wife Arundhati had left their bodies. Lila saw grieving relatives and consoled them. Saraswati explained “The brahmin wished to own opulence of a kingdom and he is that who became King Padma and his wife Arundhati became Lila”. Lila was surprised that although the brahmin had died only 8 days earlier, King Padma and Lila had passed many years ruling the Kingdom. At that point Saraswati explained that time and distance are not the absolutes but they form uncountable multi verses within pure consciousness, each universe with a different space-time framework.

In the second realm, Lila went to kingdom of Vidhiratha and his wife Lila (the second), who were same as the King Padma and the first Lila. Although, King Padma had died just one day before, King Vidhiratha was in his 70th year. Lila the first along with the Goddess and Lila the second witnessed a fierce battle between King Vidhiratha and a neighbouring king, Sindhu. In the battle King Vidhiratha was slain.

Saraswati explained “Lila, you and your husband have been through many incarnations, three of which you now know. She further explained ”Dear one, all this terrible war, this destruction and death, are as real as a dream; for there is neither a kingdom nor the earth. All this took place in the house of the holy man Vasishta on top of the hill. This palace and this battle field and all the rest of it is nowhere but the inner apartments of your own palace. In fact,. the entire universe is there. For, within the house of the holy man is the world of the king Padma; and within the palace of that king in that world is the battle that you have seen here. All this is mere fancy, hallucination. What is, is the sole reality which is neither created nor destroyed. It is that infinite consciousness that is perceived by the ignorant as the universe”.

Lila exclaimed “O Divinity! Since emerging as a reflection in the infinite consciousness I have had 800 births. Today I see this. In this place, my husband ruled the world. Because he was determined to be a great king soon, he had indeed become an emperor within the short span of eight days, though it looked like a long, long time. In this house my husband lives, unseen. Here, In the space of the size of a thumb, we imagined the kingdom of my husband to be a million square miles. O Divinity, surely both my husband and I are of pure consciousness; yet, on account of the mysterious illusory power, Maya, my husband’s kingdom appears to encompass hundreds of miles. This is truly marvellous.”

MY OPINION
In both stories, characters transcend space-time and communicate across different space-time frameworks. In the Lila story, the travelling is done by first getting rid of the gross body sense. In the film Interstellar, Cooper enters singularity and comes back to normal form again. How?

I do think that the story of Lila may lead one to moksha while the film is a work of fiction and nothing more.
...
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To me, the story and you OP illustrate the similarities between advanced physics of today and the knowledge of the Rishis.

Both physics and advaita state that our perceptions are illusions. From physics we know that everything we perceive as solid can be described in terms of energy. If we had the senses that are equivalent to electron microscopes, we'd not see a solid but vast open spaces with bits of energy that we call electrons and a tiny bit of energy we call a nucleus which in turn is made up of the same thing on a different scale where particles are protons and neutrons composed of quarks.

I do think that the story of Lila may lead one to moksha

To me a story does not necessarily lead anywhere. Knowing something and making that knowledge manifest can.

while the film is a work of fiction and nothing more.

There are a few movies that are not entirely superficial but have a deeper meaning. I don't have a real opinion on this one in particular - I'd have to see it.

For example, the move Dark Crystal has to me a correspondence to what the world is passing through now. The movie They Might Be Giants explicitly ends with a message about the heart seeing what the intellect can't fathom.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm always skeptical of humans who want to be something more than human. That want to 'commune with the gods'. There's something anti-human about it. As though the ego has become so self-obsessed that it wants to escape the entity that it's supposed to be protecting and serving. And that seems profoundly not spiritual, to me.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
.
To me, the story and you OP illustrate the similarities between advanced physics of today and the knowledge of the Rishis.

Both physics and advaita state that our perceptions are illusions. From physics we know that everything we perceive as solid can be described in terms of energy. If we had the senses that are equivalent to electron microscopes, we'd not see a solid but vast open spaces with bits of energy that we call electrons and a tiny bit of energy we call a nucleus which in turn is made up of the same thing on a different scale where particles are protons and neutrons composed of quarks.



To me a story does not necessarily lead anywhere. Knowing something and making that knowledge manifest can.



There are a few movies that are not entirely superficial but have a deeper meaning. I don't have a real opinion on this one in particular - I'd have to see it.

For example, the move Dark Crystal has to me a correspondence to what the world is passing through now. The movie They Might Be Giants explicitly ends with a message about the heart seeing what the intellect can't fathom.

I will like to see the movies you have mentioned.

Actually, I like most of Christopher Nolan’s works. I intentionally disparaged it a bit to invite comments. At the same time, time travel etc. in the framework of current physics remains a fiction. On the other hand, in my opinion, there is no way that Yoga Vasishta can become a subject of scientific enquiry.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I'm always skeptical of humans who want to be something more than human. That want to 'commune with the gods'. There's something anti-human about it. As though the ego has become so self-obsessed that it wants to escape the entity that it's supposed to be protecting and serving. And that seems profoundly not spiritual, to me.

Thank you for your comments. I do not understand the context however. Can you please explain?
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm always skeptical of humans who want to be something more than human. That want to 'commune with the gods'. There's something anti-human about it. As though the ego has become so self-obsessed that it wants to escape the entity that it's supposed to be protecting and serving. And that seems profoundly not spiritual, to me.

Humans from time immemorial have found ways to commune with, respect, honor, give thanks to, or appease the Gods in one form or another. These are all "anti-human" to you? For some the Ego may become self obsessed (but theism has little to do with this I think). But for most it brings them a sense of purpose, peace, community, and contentment. These are decidedly human desires in my opinion.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Thank you for your comments. I do not understand the context however. Can you please explain?
To be human is to NOT KNOW. It is to be part of a great existential mystery. To wander and wonder for a lifetime. And to create ourselves in the face of this un-resolve-able dilemma; because it is unresolved. And because we don't know what it all means. Or why we are here, or who were were "meant" to be.

It just seems to me that to want so badly to gain that resolution is to want to be human, no more. To reject that amazing gift just so we can "know all the answers".
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Humans from time immemorial have found ways to commune with, respect, honor, give thanks to, or appease the Gods in one form or another. These are all "anti-human" to you?
Yes, but all through an act of faith. Not knowledge. It's how we define ourselves and our world in the face our our unknowing. To be human is to be confronted with that great existential mystery.

To resolve that mystery is to cease being human. And to want to resolve that mystery is to want to cease being human.
For some the Ego may become self obsessed (but theism has little to do with this I think). But for most it brings them a sense of purpose, peace, community, and contentment. These are decidedly human desires in my opinion.
I think we fail ourselves when when we allow ourselves to believe our own egos. When we pretend we have found the answers as opposed to our answers.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Yes, but all through an act of faith. Not knowledge. It's how we define ourselves and our world in the face our our unknowing. To be human is to be confronted with that great existential mystery.

To resolve that mystery is to cease being human. And to want to resolve that mystery is to want to cease being human.
I think we fail ourselves when when we allow ourselves to believe our own egos. When we pretend we have found the answers as opposed to our answers.

I have no horse in the faith vs knowledge argument. Even science falls on faith at some points.

People pretending that they have "the" answers as opposed to "their" answers in matters of faith is just human hubris, and of no remark on religion.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I have no horse in the faith vs knowledge argument. Even science falls on faith at some points.

People pretending that they have "the" answers as opposed to "their" answers in matters of faith is just human hubris, and of no remark on religion.
My point was not about religion. Just me sense of the idea of humans trying to 'commune with the gods'. As opposed to, say, honoring and trusting in the great mystery.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Both physics and advaita state that our perceptions are illusions. From physics we know that everything we perceive as solid can be described in terms of energy. If we had the senses that are equivalent to electron microscopes, we'd not see a solid but vast open spaces with bits of energy that we call electrons and a tiny bit of energy we call a nucleus which in turn is made up of the same thing on a different scale where particles are protons and neutrons composed of quarks.

Not made of “energy”. They are talking about FIELDS, sun rise...not energy.

You are talking about current theoretical Quantum Field Theory, which say that every elementary particles (Standard Model) are made of fields, not energy.

Whether you view them as particles or fields - energy, is a property of particle or field.

Take for instance, the Standard Model of elementary particles, they would each provide measurable properties:
  • mass
  • charge
  • spin
Some particles have all 3 properties (eg W boson, 6 quarks and 3 non-neutrino leptons, like electron, moon and tau), while the other leptons - 3 types of neutrinos - and the Z boson, each have mass and spin, but no charges. Photon and gluon have spin, but no mass and charge, while Higgs boson only have mass.

Each of these particles, whether they only 1 or more properties, they would each have energy.

My point is that energy cannot exist on their own, energy must come with particles (or with fields).

Missing in that Standard Model is the particle for gravity, or more precisely graviton, which have its own force and energy.

Gravity and Gravitation (force) are covered by General Relativity, and I would suspect that gravity have their own fields.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
To be human is to NOT KNOW. It is to be part of a great existential mystery. To wander and wonder for a lifetime. And to create ourselves in the face of this un-resolve-able dilemma; because it is unresolved. And because we don't know what it all means. Or why we are here, or who were were "meant" to be.

It just seems to me that to want so badly to gain that resolution is to want to be human, no more. To reject that amazing gift just so we can "know all the answers".

I respect your choice to be human and ‘not to know’. Some choose ‘Truth will set you free’.

:)
 
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