Transgender athlete

[Koldo]

So if you are not asking for non-cheating, and you are not asking for fairness, what are you asking for?

Let's stop pretending to be fair. Either let's make it fair by not allowing anyone to have a massive biological advantage (either by creating more categories or making compensations for those advantages) or let's make only fully open competitions.

 

[Kfox]

Let's stop pretending to be fair. Either let's make it fair by not allowing anyone to have a massive biological advantage (either by creating more categories or making compensations for those advantages) or let's make only fully open competitions.

How many categories are needed for a single sport to be considered fair according to your standard? 10? 20? 100?

 

[Koldo]

No one wants to watch 5 different NBA height class competitions, and most recreational teams can’t form 5 different height classes either.

Instead of having men’s and women’s competitions let’s ruin pro sport and make amateur sport largely unworkable

It amazes me people make such ludicrously unrealistic proposals simply due ti the question of transwomen in sports.

And here is a strawman. I have never suggested 5 different NBA height class competitions.

 

[Koldo]

How many categories are needed for a single sport to be considered fair according to your standard? 10? 20? 100?

Depends on the sport, obviously.
Should wrestling only have one category, for example?

 

[Augustus]

And here is a strawman. I have never suggested 5 different NBA height class competitions.

Way to miss the point.

No one wants to watch 2 either particularly the small guy league, and many recreational teams can’t function with 2 height classes either.

The problem is multiple classes in sports that don’t traditionally have them, not the precise number.

 

[metis]

I wasn't suggesting a separate category for Transgender athletes, I was saying transgender athletes should play in the division according to their sexual biology.

Are you referring to the "equipment" or the hormones? The sexual driving force is the latter.

 

[metis]

“Toughen up princess, maybe sports aren’t for you eh? You’re better off staying home and learning knitting” is not quite the progressive flex you think it is.

Such a misogynistic attitude.

Parents demand answers from ECB as trans woman competes against girls

The ECB say they are currently reviewing their policy on transgender cricketers.

www.express.co.uk

That makes 0 sense, but that seems to be your m.o. anyway, so no surprise. I was for Title 9 before it was even passed, so your childish cheap shot says much more about you than I.

 

[Augustus]

That makes 0 sense, but that seems to be your m.o. anyway, so no surprise. I was for Title 9 before it was even passed, so your childish cheap shot says much more about you than I.

Again the idea that you seem unable to comprehend is that telling women and girls that if they don’t like the increased risk that comes from allowing transwomen to compete in women’s sports then they should take up cards is a misogynistic and rather infantile opinion to hold.

Tbh I don’t think you actually are misogynistic, just naive, poorly informed and making a knee jerk reaction where you need to instinctively oppose what “the other side” favours.

You’re just not astute enough to realise it’s not simply a facile culture war issue.

But hey, those virtues ain’t gonna signal themselves so don’t hide your lights under a bushel

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Let me be clear: I was talking about inclusiveness in the sense of making it so most people who train hard can play competitively. Therefore, if we were to look at the demographics of basketball players we wouldn't be able to see any specific dominant group (such as tall people). If there is a better word for that, let me know. I definitely wasn't saying it in the sense that the rules must not forbide someone from playing, because that already happens.

An example of an hyphotetical additional category is: Male max X meters height category. Where X could be something like 1,85.

Competitions like that already exist at lower levels (or used to...they tend not to be very popular). I got asked several times to play in a 6 foot and under comp back when I could properly run and jump.
There are also over age groups (I play 30+ these days), walking basketball for those incapable of running due to age/injury, mixed competitions, wheelchair competitions...

Again, people seem to be confusing elite and domestic level competitions...

 

[Koldo]

Competitions like that already exist at lower levels (or used to...they tend not to be very popular). I got asked several times to play in a 6 foot and under comp back when I could properly run and jump.
There are also over age groups (I play 30+ these days), walking basketball for those incapable of running due to age/injury, mixed competitions, wheelchair competitions...

Again, people seem to be confusing elite and domestic level competitions...

If the point was missing I would like to make it clearer: I am talking about elite competitions only.

 

[Koldo]

Way to miss the point.

No one wants to watch 2 either particularly the small guy league, and many recreational teams can’t function with 2 height classes either.

The problem is multiple classes in sports that don’t traditionally have them, not the precise number.

Recreational teams don't even need categories. Mixed teams are fairly common in volleyball here in Brazil if you just want to play for fun.

As for elite games, when has lack of popularity ever prevented multiple categories from being created?

 

[Kfox]

Depends on the sport, obviously.
Should wrestling only have one category, for example?

I was talking about basketball. Some people are taller than others, some have better hamstring development than others allowing them to get off the line qucker, some have better calf development allowing them to have a better vertical jump than others, some are naturally quick, some have better stamina, just to name a few; there are countless differences that determine why one is better than the other; are we gonna have a bunch of categories for each of the examples I listed plus the countless others I did not mention?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If the point was missing I would like to make it clearer: I am talking about elite competitions only.

Okay. What is the point of breaking up the elite open competition (NBL/NBA) into sub competitions based on height, or skill level.

'Yes folks, you're watching the best under 6 foot basketballers in the country...apart from the ones who qualified for the elite competitions of course, they were too busy to be here...'
It's no longer the elite competition.

If you're arguing that gender is completely arbitrary as a way of dividing competitors up, and you're trying to suggest other equally arbitrary measures would serve as well, I am yet to hear anything from anyone resembling a workable solution for a viable national (or state level) competition at an elite level that isn't either completely open ('fair' in so far as no-one is technically excluded), or is gender based.
Just ideologically driven talk with a complete lack of details. I'd much prefer...imperfect as it is...our current approach.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

As for elite games, when has lack of popularity ever prevented multiple categories from being created?

Literally all the time.

 

[Kfox]

Are you referring to the "equipment" or the hormones? The sexual driving force is the latter.

I was referring to their biology. Do you understand the biological differences when it comes to male vs female?

 

[Jose Fly]

Why do you all focus only on the most skilled sets of players in a given sport?

To make the point that if we eliminate women's sports and just have "sports", all the top levels (including the secondary levels like minor leagues) will be all men.

Again, are you aware of why women's sports were created in the first place?

Why are you all so obsessed with excellence instead of equitable competition.

???????? "Equitable competition" is why women's leagues were created! Duh.

I couldn't care less about who is in the top tier of a sport. Those people will never be denied access to the sport they want to play. So they aren't the issue. It's all those other people that want to play sports but cannot as their gender or their sexual identity precludes them, because we are still following silly antiquated selection rules in the way we organize sports.

So what exactly is your solution? Be specific.

There is NOTHING about one's gender that makes them better or worse at ANY sport short of childbirth.

Yes there is, as evidenced by the fact that the top-tier leagues are all men. If there was no advantage to being born male, that wouldn't be the case.

So there is no reason whatever to be using gender as the criteria for determining eligibility.

So your solution is to eliminate women's sports. Again, why do you think women's sports leagues were created?

 

[Jose Fly]

No one wants to watch 5 different NBA height class competitions, and most recreational teams can’t form 5 different height classes either.

Remember the World Basketball League, where everyone had to be 6'5" and under? I actually went to a game (cheap courtside seats) once. It wasn't very entertaining and the league flopped in about 4 years.

Instead of having men’s and women’s competitions let’s ruin pro sport and make amateur sport largely unworkable

It amazes me people make such ludicrously unrealistic proposals simply due to the question of transwomen in sports.

I hate to be a broken record, but it's because they don't value or really understand sports.

 

[Koldo]

I was talking about basketball. Some people are taller than others, some have better hamstring development than others allowing them to get off the line qucker, some have better calf development allowing them to have a better vertical jump than others, some are naturally quick, some have better stamina, just to name a few; there are countless differences that determine why one is better than the other; are we gonna have a bunch of categories for each of the examples I listed plus the countless others I did not mention?

We would need to ascertain what characteristics are essentially game breakers. In the case of basketball I only know of height. If you can provide a study that shows other traits are as impactful, we can look into that. Or we can compensate for those with a specific set of rules to make competition fairer. Or we can stop pretending we care about fairness in sports. All alternatives work.

 

[Koldo]

Literally all the time.

Then why do so many sports exist here in Brazil if hardly anyone watches them?

 

[Koldo]

Okay. What is the point of breaking up the elite open competition (NBL/NBA) into sub competitions based on height, or skill level.

'Yes folks, you're watching the best under 6 foot basketballers in the country...apart from the ones who qualified for the elite competitions of course, they were too busy to be here...'
It's no longer the elite competition.

If you're arguing that gender is completely arbitrary as a way of dividing competitors up, and you're trying to suggest other equally arbitrary measures would serve as well, I am yet to hear anything from anyone resembling a workable solution for a viable national (or state level) competition at an elite level that isn't either completely open ('fair' in so far as no-one is technically excluded), or is gender based.
Just ideologically driven talk with a complete lack of details. I'd much prefer...imperfect as it is...our current approach.

I am not sure I follow...
Do you mean only open competitions are elite competitions?