Transgender etiquette (identity pronoun game)

[freethinker44]

In a gender fluid world, what's the etiquette with using gender pronouns?

I get we should use the person's preferred pronoun, or 'they' is gender neutral, but what about when someone had a significant achievement in their past before they came out as transgendered. The most obvious example is Caitlyn Jenner. Bruce Jenner comes out as a woman named Caitlyn Jenner, great, no problem with that, from that moment on you are now a woman named Caitlyn and we shall use the pronoun 'she'. Easy, done.

But who won the men's decathalon, was name male athlete of the year, and inducted into the track and field hall of fame? Was it the woman Caitlyn or the man Bruce? And supposing in the future the woman Caitlyn decides to revert back to the man Bruce, who won woman of the year in 2015, a man named Bruce or a woman named Caitlyn?
And we can make this more hypothetical, for example, if George Bush were to come out as transgender, would he be the first woman president? And what if this happens after a woman becomes president, does her status as 'first woman president' get rescinded? Or if a woman becomes president and then later becomes transgender, would she still be the first woman president?
Or if Neil Armstrong came out after the moon landing, would he still be the first man on the moon, or would he be the first woman on the moon?
How does transgender apply retroactively? Should it?
And it goes beyond just transgender, really. Who wrote 'When Doves Cry'? Was it Prince, the artist formerly known as Prince, or Prince - the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince?

So what's the etiquette for when someone changes identity? For the average person it isn't really an issue, but when you have significant accomplishments tied to your identity, does the identity tied to those accomplishments change retroactively when the identity is changed in the present or future?

It's all so confusing.

And let's keep this civil OK. This isn't about whether you agree or disagree with being transgender.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But who won the men's decathalon, was name male athlete of the year, and inducted into the track and field hall of fame? Was it the woman Caitlyn or the man Bruce?

She did; she was.

And supposing in the future the woman Caitlyn decides to revert back to the man Bruce, who won woman of the year in 2015, a man named Bruce or a woman named Caitlyn?

Bruce.

It's all so confusing.

Why so?

 

[Quintessence]

Etiquette often begins with asking the other person what they would prefer.

 

[Revoltingest]

In a gender fluid world, what's the etiquette with using gender pronouns?

I get we should use the person's preferred pronoun, or 'they' is gender neutral, but what about when someone had a significant achievement in their past before they came out as transgendered. The most obvious example is Caitlyn Jenner. Bruce Jenner comes out as a woman named Caitlyn Jenner, great, no problem with that, from that moment on you are now a woman named Caitlyn and we shall use the pronoun 'she'. Easy, done.

But who won the men's decathalon, was name male athlete of the year, and inducted into the track and field hall of fame? Was it the woman Caitlyn or the man Bruce? And supposing in the future the woman Caitlyn decides to revert back to the man Bruce, who won woman of the year in 2015, a man named Bruce or a woman named Caitlyn?
And we can make this more hypothetical, for example, if George Bush were to come out as transgender, would he be the first woman president? And what if this happens after a woman becomes president, does her status as 'first woman president' get rescinded? Or if a woman becomes president and then later becomes transgender, would she still be the first woman president?
Or if Neil Armstrong came out after the moon landing, would he still be the first man on the moon, or would he be the first woman on the moon?
How does transgender apply retroactively? Should it?
And it goes beyond just transgender, really. Who wrote 'When Doves Cry'? Was it Prince, the artist formerly known as Prince, or Prince - the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince?

So what's the etiquette for when someone changes identity? For the average person it isn't really an issue, but when you have significant accomplishments tied to your identity, does the identity tied to those accomplishments change retroactively when the identity is changed in the present or future?

It's all so confusing.

And let's keep this civil OK. This isn't about whether you agree or disagree with being transgender.

Easy!
Just look at the history.
One can say......
1) A woman won the men's decathlon.
But she was a man then.
2) A man won the men's decathlon.
But now she is a woman.
....or....
And he later became a woman.
(Matching the verb tense to the pronoun gender makes it work.)

 

[freethinker44]

Etiquette often begins with asking the other person what they would prefer.

Even then we run into problems. Take the hypothetical example of the presidency I gave. Say if Clinton becomes president she will be the first woman president of the US, but what if a former president comes out and tells everyone they prefer being known as a woman, are they the first woman president?
I get going by what people prefer is appropriate, but how does it apply in the past? Can their current preference change the perception of past events?

 

[Jumi]

Some languages don't have this problem since there's no he/she. Everyone's a person.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Before she came out, she won the men's decathlon. There you go.

 

[Quintessence]

I get going by what people prefer is appropriate, but how does it apply in the past? Can their current preference change the perception of past events?

Of course it can. Ask that person to see what they prefer. While it's ideal to respect those wishes, it is also unrealistic to expect hundreds of thousands of records to be re-written to reflect a new identity, and I doubt that someone in this case scenario would have such an expectation. Just use the proper pronouns moving forward, and new history textbooks should reflect whatever pronouns they prefer.

 

[Deidre]

I've often thought that the problem with cultures isn't that we are categorized by gender, but rather that many people assign value to humans, based on gender.

 

[freethinker44]

Of course it can. Ask that person to see what they prefer. While it's idea to respect those wishes, it is also unrealistic to expect hundreds of thousands of records to be re-written to reflect a new identity, and I doubt that someone in this case scenario would have such an expectation. Just use the proper pronouns moving forward, and new history textbooks should reflect whatever pronouns they prefer.

Right, I'm not just talking about pronouns though, I'm talking about titles, achievements, and roles tied to gender, and not even just gender but identity in general. And sometimes someone's identity doesn't effect just them. Can one person's preferences in the present retroactively effect another person in the past? For example, if a man changes gender today, and prefers to be called a woman, does that mean all the women or men they may have had a relationship with in the past had a relationship with a woman even if they don't see it that way? Like if a gay man becomes trangendered, does that mean all their gay male partners who thought they were in a homosexual relationship were actually having a heterosexual relationship even though they neither knew it nor wanted it?
Or if a woman becomes the first woman to accomplish something, does that achievement get taken or diminished if a man that accomplished it before her later comes out as transgender? Do they both get the title 'first woman'?

I guess what I'm really asking is, should present events change the perception of past events, and to what degree is this reasonable?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is a worthy discussion and an interesting topic. I'll have to think about this more.

 

[Skwim]

Some languages don't have this problem since there's no he/she. Everyone's a person.

Interesting. Which ones?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I guess what I'm really asking is, should present events change the perception of past events, and to what degree is this reasonable?

Let me fix this a bit:

... should present events inform the perception of past events, and to what degree is this reasonable?
​

Yes. To do so is completely reasonable.

 

[Riverwolf]

I guess what I'm really asking is, should present events change the perception of past events, and to what degree is this reasonable?

Whether reasonable or not, it's inevitable. Since we live in the present, that's the only barometer we have for observing the past.

Honestly, this is one of the more straightforward cases. If a biosex male comes out as a woman, I understand that unless she says otherwise, it's safe to use "she" in all future references to her, even when talking about the period of her life before she came out. If coming out as such would mean she'd be the "first woman" to do something, then I'd think it'd be up to her to decide whether to accept that title, or accept something else, like "first trans-woman", or even whether she wants to accept any titles at all.

It's really not that complicated at all. I understand that it can be VERY emotionally and mentally challenging to have something so deeply engrained as the gender binary dismantled, and even painful at times. It's going to cause a lot of things that are core to our culture to change how they operate, such as these "first woman" and such titles. But that's not from being complicated; it's from challenging something we've just accepted without question ever since we were infants, and has been a major aspect of our culture for thousands of years.

 

[Jumi]

Interesting. Which ones?

The biggest one is Chinese. Japanese, Finno-Ugric and Turkic languages are also gender neutral.

edit: googled a bit, here's a more extensive list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

 

[Aquitaine]

I've often thought that the problem with cultures isn't that we are categorized by gender, but rather that many people assign value to humans, based on gender.

Exactly. Like not sending girls to school etc. An immensly dangerous practice which creates a viscious cycle.

 

[Skwim]

The biggest one is Chinese. Japanese, Finno-Ugric and Turkic languages are also gender neutral.

edit: googled a bit, here's a more extensive list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

Thanks. I had no idea it was this wide spread.

 

[Quintessence]

I guess what I'm really asking is, should present events change the perception of past events, and to what degree is this reasonable?

I'm just going to quote this...

I've often thought that the problem with cultures isn't that we are categorized by gender, but rather that many people assign value to humans, based on gender.

... and say that placing weight and value on a person's accomplishments based on sex assigned at birth, sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation is something I want to see die a horrible death. It is, at best, superficial, and reinforces the culture of privileging certain types of expression or people over others. At worst, that culture of privilege becomes systemic discrimination, producing deep personal wounds (whether emotional or physical), and perhaps even death (whether by the hands of another via hate crimes or by one's own hands via suicide).

 

[Deidre]

I'm just going to quote this...



... and say that placing weight and value on a person's accomplishments based on sex assigned at birth, sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation is something I want to see die a horrible death. It is, at best, superficial, and reinforces the culture of privileging certain types of expression or people over others. At worst, that culture of privilege becomes systemic discrimination, producing deep personal wounds (whether emotional or physical), and perhaps even death (whether by the hands of another via hate crimes or by one's own hands via suicide).

Yes, absolutely. Well stated!! This is why (imo) even the mere idea of transgender is so offensive to many people, because it calls into question THEIR value, as a person.

 

[freethinker44]

I'm just going to quote this...



... and say that placing weight and value on a person's accomplishments based on sex assigned at birth, sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation is something I want to see die a horrible death. It is, at best, superficial, and reinforces the culture of privileging certain types of expression or people over others. At worst, that culture of privilege becomes systemic discrimination, producing deep personal wounds (whether emotional or physical), and perhaps even death (whether by the hands of another via hate crimes or by one's own hands via suicide).

I agree, in a perfect we wouldn't have accomplishments tied to race or gender or anything like that, and this is a world we should aspire to live in one day, but we don't right now, and we didn't in the past.
And so in a culture where people are marginalized because of race or gender or for any other reason, being the first of your marginalized group to accomplish some feat is an accomplishment in itself.
If gender can be changed retroactively, does this mean that someone that lived their life as a man and accomplished something many other men have but no women would they be the first woman to accomplish this if they change gender in the future?
If so what if a woman already accomplished that after he did but before he became a woman, does she still get that accomplishment? Do they both get that accomplishment?
Or what about the first woman to accomplish something but in the future changes her gender, does that mean they'll no longer be the first woman to do that?