Transsexuals, gender studies in 2016 - assistance please?

[Timothy Bryce]

Back in 2007, I took a sociology unit that explored gender as a social construct as distinguished from biological sex; the latter of which clearly shows, empirically, that there are only two sexes that cannot be altered: male and female.

When exploring gender as a social construct in the sociology class, it dissected and unpacked conceptions of masculine/feminine and the reasons behind our conceptions of it; including the ways in which huge portions of society have both colored it and overlooked the potential to consider gender as a social construct to begin with.

I'm in no way arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to dress and behave how they like (ensuring that they don't violate another person's human rights), but is there any conclusive, empirical evidence that transsexuality is not either a mental disorder/illness or a derivative of some form of mental disorder/illness?

Good ol' Milo makes some great points about how humanity's attempts to explore and establish humane, conclusive evidence about transsexuality (so that it can be approached in an appropriate way - by society and transsexual individuals) has been completely torn down during this decade. He goes on to say (as easily as it can be inferred) that this is actually inhumane and dangerous to transsexuals to proceed with a certain idea without adequate research and studies being conducted or concluded:

From my own experiences in the real world*, the only people in drag that I've ever met who seemed to live arguably well-adjusted lives were gay men going out partying in gay districts who would not consider themselves to be transsexual but rather just gay and having fun with a gimmick or fetish that appealed to them.

* - "real world" beyond the media, internet discussion; my own social experiences

Yesterday, I saw a man with a 5 o'clock shadow rush past me in the street screaming things to himself (not on the phone or anything - looked genuinely psychotic) who reeked of **** and ****.

Back in college, the only transgender guy I knew of was generally thought of, by the campus who knew him, as a confirmed deranged pervert. This was not because he eventually started dressing like a woman and wore a wig, it was because he would routinely invade the privacy of women that he shared a dorm with.

The more I hear it, the term "cis" or "cis-gender" is getting on my nerves because it's seems to be unnecessarily labeling and and making distinctions between people who are really just... people; as in, men and women. Not men, women, [fill in the blank], [fill in the blank], [fill in the blank], etc.

As stated above, I'm asking for assistance as to how it has been scientifically (to be more specific: psychologically) confirmed that transsexuality is not the manifestation of something that is of a sinister mental health concern. This is in no way an expression of bigotry.

One of the first things they taught us in sociology was how far away on the other end of the spectrum sociology (especially gender studies) is when considered as an empirical discipline within the faculty of sciences.

For example: <---Math------------Physics------------Biology------------Psychology------------Sociology--->

Or, am I, at 28 years old, just becoming a dinosaur? I believe that I'm open-minded and objective enough to accept some of the more progressive ideas about identity politics if I am presented with empirical facts, studies and data that reach a reasonable conclusion.

So far, all I've really seen is a bunch of anecdotes.

 

[MD]

I think the Trans issue is separate from sexual orientation.

There are straight and gay people who feel strongly on both sides of the debate. Milo is gay and I have a couple of gay friends who find the concept of transsexualism wrong.

I on the other hand don't think gender is a social construct, but that transsexualism is not a mental illness. There are a small percentage of people who have biological changes to their brains due to environmental, genetic or congenital reasons and if they wish to change genders then so be it. Changing a gender is a very difficult, life altering decision that results in a lot of derision from society. I don't think it's a choice.

However it's not a social concept, if it was then we would use psychotherapy instead of hormonal replacement therapy for treating gender identity disorder. Gender is a biological fact.

 

[Kirran]

Just to throw in - people don't always conform biologically to that 'there are only two sexes: male and female' thing. I don't have the time to wade in on the rest right now, although I skim-listened a couple of snippets from the video.

One snippet was Joe saying 'What if you've wanted your whole life to be a woman...?' to Milo's response of 'Well some people wake up one day and decide their arm doesn't belong to them, we don't go and chop it off' leading me to think he kind of missed the whole 'wanted your whole life' thing.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Just to throw in - people don't always conform biologically to that 'there are only two sexes: male and female' thing.

I know, but aren't those extremely rare biological mishaps?

I don't have the time to wade in on the rest right now, although I skim-listened a couple of snippets from the video.

One snippet was Joe saying 'What if you've wanted your whole life to be a woman...?' to Milo's response of 'Well some people wake up one day and decide their arm doesn't belong to them, we don't go and chop it off' leading me to think he kind of missed the whole 'wanted your whole life' thing.

I see your point, but on the contrary, I think Milo was trying to bring home the fact that an encouragement towards and endorsement of genital mutilation by members of the medical community WITHOUT conclusive scientific evidence is dangerous and inhumane. I don't think he missed the point; rather it was an exchange of rhetoric between them.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I think the Trans issue is separate from sexual orientation.

That's the impression I get too. It seems to range from straight people joking around in drag to deranged perverts looking for an avenue into the bathroom of the opposite sex.

There are straight and gay people who feel strongly on both sides of the debate. Milo is gay and I have a couple of gay friends who find the concept of transsexualism wrong.

I on the other hand don't think gender is a social construct, but that transsexualism is not a mental illness. There are a small percentage of people who have biological changes to their brains due to environmental, genetic or congenital reasons and if they wish to change genders then so be it. Changing a gender is a very difficult, life altering decision that results in a lot of derision from society. I don't think it's a choice.

However it's not a social concept, if it was then we would use psychotherapy instead of hormonal replacement therapy for treating gender identity disorder. Gender is a biological fact.

Aren't both approaches used (both interchangeably and in cohesion with each other) depending upon a patient's instructions/disposition?

 

[HonestJoe]

but is there any conclusive, empirical evidence that transsexuality is not either a mental disorder/illness or a derivative of some form of mental disorder/illness?

That depends on exactly how you're defining the terms (you even acknowledge that we can't even agree on "disorder" or "illness" for example). The problem is that in the context of this kind of discussion, it's defined to fit whatever predefined idea each person holds.

From my own experiences in the real world*, the only people in drag...

Drag is entirely different to transgender. You probably will have experienced trasgender people in the real world but not have realised they were.

Back in college, the only transgender guy I knew of was generally thought of, by the campus who knew him, as a confirmed deranged pervert.

That only reflects on that one individual, not transgenders in general, any more than bad things done by Americans, doctors or vegetarians reflect on those groups.

The more I hear it, the term "cis" or "cis-gender" is getting on my nerves because it's seems to be unnecessarily labeling and and making distinctions between people who are really just... people;

I'm not a fan of labelling in general and don't particularly like the sound of that term. If you're going to discuss this topic though, it helps to have clear and easy short-hand terms for relevant elements. It's not needed outside that and, in my experience, isn't used outside this context.

As stated above, I'm asking for assistance as to how it has been scientifically (to be more specific: psychologically) confirmed that transsexuality is not the manifestation of something that is of a sinister mental health concern. This is in no way an expression of bigotry.

I think the way you asked the question demonstrates why that's probably not possible in our current society. There's too much conflict, bias and yes bigotry, from all sorts of directions.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm a little more confused at the relationship between gender as a social construct and transsexuality. If gender is a social thing then why do transsexual people want to change sex and by default have to change genders to do so?
I don't have any real issue with transsexuality, it is what it is and people should be free to do what makes them happy. But if gender is a social construct then how does it reconcile people who need to change ther sex to line up with their gender in order to not feel like an alien in their own body? (I apologise if that metaphor was inaccurate, I just don't know how to word it.)

 

[Timothy Bryce]

That depends on exactly how you're defining the terms (you even acknowledge that we can't even agree on "disorder" or "illness" for example). The problem is that in the context of this kind of discussion, it's defined to fit whatever predefined idea each person holds.

Damn, that sucks. Because I agree with you; and in doing so, it seems like discussing the issue might not go very far in terms of establishing anything empirical.

Drag is entirely different to transgender. You probably will have experienced trasgender people in the real world but not have realised they were.

Probably. That's kinda creepy to me; I hope I haven't had sex with any of them.

That only reflects on that one individual, not transgenders in general, any more than bad things done by Americans, doctors or vegetarians reflect on those groups.

Fair enough. I've never known a transgender person not to have severe psychological hangups though. But like you said, I might not have ever known the difference.

I'm not a fan of labelling in general and don't particularly like the sound of that term. If you're going to discuss this topic though, it helps to have clear and easy short-hand terms for relevant elements. It's not needed outside that and, in my experience, isn't used outside this context.

Not pressed.

I think the way you asked the question demonstrates why that's probably not possible in our current society. There's too much conflict, bias and yes bigotry, from all sorts of directions.

This is the most important issue though: we do indeed have the capacity to research these things scientifically and empirically, but we don't due to identity politics which does humanity an enormous injustice. It's as bad as bigotry IMO.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I'm a little more confused at the relationship between gender as a social construct and transsexuality. If gender is a social thing then why do transsexual people want to change sex and by default have to change genders to do so?
I don't have any real issue with transsexuality, it is what it is and people should be free to do what makes them happy. But if gender is a social construct then how does it reconcile people who need to change genders in order to not feel like an alien in their own body? (I apologise if that metaphor was inaccurate, I just don't know how to word it.)

That completely reflects my point: there's so much confusion regarding the issue because there is insufficient research/evidence on the subject.

 

[Kirran]

Transgender, transsexual and transvestite are very much non-synonymous terms.

Transgender = your gender is different to that which you were assigned at birth on account of your physical sex.
Transsexual = someone who goes through medical procedures to bring their body more in line with sex that corresponds to their gender. Not all transgender people are transsexual or have any interest in being so.
Transvestite = you wear clothing associated with another gender. So a man who puts on women's clothing habitually, for example.

Be aware of the distinctions of the terms, and of what they refer to.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Which gender are Hermaphrodites or natural
Eunuchs ? ... and may they make a choice ?

 

[SomeRandom]

That completely reflects my point: there's so much confusion regarding the issue because there is insufficient research/evidence on the subject.

Well yeah. Transsexual and transgendered people seem to contradict the thinking that gender is a wholly social construct. I mean I get that there is social influence defining gendered things and that's becoming more blurry. But still. It's confusing,

 

[Kirran]

Which gender are Hermaphrodites or natural
Eunuchs ? ... and may they make a choice ?

I don't think there's much choice in the matter. The natural gender of an intersex person (covers hermaphrodites) is most commonly intersex, but in some cases they might identify as men, women or otherwise. I'm not sure what a natural eunuch is exactly.

 

[Kirran]

We haven't got the language for it totally - but you kind of have gender as a social construct, gender as "brain sex" and then biological sex.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

We haven't got the language for it totally - but you kind of have gender as a social construct, gender as "brain sex" and then biological sex.

I prefer to keep it simple and founded on fact:

XX = Female
XY = Male

Then, and only then, one can delve into differing personalities that don't venture outside that factual, biological definition.

I.e. "he's a man's man; too much testosterone," "that's girl's a little butch/tomboyish," "nice guy syndrome," etc. These are poor examples by my own admission, but you get what I'm hinting at.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm a little more confused at the relationship between gender as a social construct and transsexuality. If gender is a social thing then why do transsexual people want to change sex and by default have to change genders to do so?
I don't have any real issue with transsexuality, it is what it is and people should be free to do what makes them happy. But if gender is a social construct then how does it reconcile people who need to change ther sex to line up with their gender in order to not feel like an alien in their own body? (I apologise if that metaphor was inaccurate, I just don't know how to word it.)

Nobody outside of certain academics, maybe, is trying to say that gender is just a social construct. The idea used to be more popular decades ago but has been largely disproven. Look up John Money and his wackiness.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

if gender is a social construct then how does it reconcile people who need to change ther sex to line up with their gender in order to not feel like an alien in their own body? (I apologise if that metaphor was inaccurate, I just don't know how to word it.)

And is it really possible change one's sex? Even post-reassignment surgery and pumped full of incompatible hormones, they're still biologically the same sex as they were before.

I think this is particularly important because, if Milo's stance on transsexuals is true (and I definitely lean toward it), then gender reassignment surgery is reckless at best and unconscionably cruel at worst.

 

[SomeRandom]

Nobody outside of certain academics, maybe, is trying to say that gender is just a social construct. The idea used to be more popular decades ago but has been largely disproven. Look up John Money and his wackiness.

Actually that's the majority of what I have gotten from the vast majority of hardline feminists I know. It just always kind of confused me a little.

 

[SomeRandom]

And is it really possible change one's sex? Even post-reassignment surgery and pumped full of incompatible hormones, they're still biologically the same sex as they were before.

I think this is particularly important because, if Milo's stance on transsexuals is true (and I definitely lean toward it), then gender reassignment surgery is reckless at best and unconscionably cruel at worst.

Well, I guess? I don't know. But are you defining sex strictly by chromosomes? If so, that doesn't take into account all the biological variations that can occur.
I disagree with Milo. I mean I'm not saying more study shouldn't happen, of course. But a lot of it is plastic surgery, technically. I know it's more complicated and exhausting than that. But still. People have autonomy and they can do as they please.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually that's the majority of what I have gotten from the vast majority of hardline feminists I know. It just always kind of confused me a little.

That would be believed in some forms of radical feminism, which is a small subset of feminism as a whole. It was popular in the '70s and such.