Transsexuals, gender studies in 2016 - assistance please?

[SomeRandom]

That would be believed in some forms of radical feminism, which is a small subset of feminism as a whole. It was popular in the '70s and such.

Oh, but all the hardline feminists I know are Gen Xers and some Millennials. Maybe it crept back into some recent circles?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh, but all the hardline feminists I know are Gen Xers and some Millennials. Maybe it crept back into some recent circles?

Not that I know of. I don't know who you've been talking to.

 

[SomeRandom]

Not that I know of. I don't know who you've been talking to.

Umm, feminists. Not sure what particular "sect" they ascribe to, particularly. But gender as a social construct is rather a popular sentiment in Australia. Insofar as vocal feminism is concerned.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Umm, feminists. Not sure what particular "sect" they ascribe to, particularly. But gender as a social construct is rather a popular sentiment in Australia. Insofar as vocal feminism is concerned.

Gender roles and gender expression are social constructs, but not gender itself. With those people, I don't know exactly what they're saying. Examples?

 

[SomeRandom]

Gender roles and gender expression are social constructs, but not gender itself. With those people, I don't know exactly what they're saying. Examples?

Then perhaps I'm merely misinterpreting what they're saying. When people keep reiterating that and I quote "gender is merely a social construct" it doesn't do a whole lot to explain exactly what they mean by that. Though maybe that's just a consequence of the lazy usage of English in Australia. By Aus English standards I just wrote a damned book lol

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Well, I guess? I don't know. But are you defining sex strictly by chromosomes? If so, that doesn't take into account all the biological variations that can occur.

With genitals? Those are only extremely rare cases considered to be biological mistakes.

What other biological variations are you referring to?

I disagree with Milo. I mean I'm not saying more study shouldn't happen, of course. But a lot of it is plastic surgery, technically. I know it's more complicated and exhausting than that. But still. People have autonomy and they can do as they please.

Agreed. But should all suicides be advocated in the interest of human autonomy?

The medical profession's endorsement of the option of "hacking away at one's genitals" in response to one's own self perception when there's no conclusive evidence that the disposition isn't sinister or capable of being corrected is abhorrent to me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm in no way arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to dress and behave how they like (ensuring that they don't violate another person's human rights), but is there any conclusive, empirical evidence that transsexuality is not either a mental disorder/illness or a derivative of some form of mental disorder/illness?

Basically it boils down the definition and criteria of a mental disorder. One key components is that it causes distress. In transsexuals the distress comes from others and from self-denial, but it dissipates upon transitioning. The ability to function is another gauge of mental disorders. If someone is schizophrenic, they will only worsen in functioning if they are encouraged to listen to their voices and act on them. People with OCD can be trapped in a world of torment feeling powerless over their disorder as they carry on with their slavish compulsive behaviors. Transsexuals, on the other hand, generally and mostly improve with transitioning. Not all successfully transition, but a major reason for a failed transition is lack of social support.
Also, there have been autopsied performed on the brains of both pre-hormone treatment transsexuals and those who have been on hormone treatments, and even the brains of pre-hormone treatment structurally appear more like their identified sex than their birth-assigned sex.

then gender reassignment surgery is reckless at best and unconscionably cruel at worst.

That is contradicting established science. Gender is rather complicated. Truthfully, it doesn't matter what parts we have, if their is an individual society sees as a woman, and this person identifies as a woman, then there is no way of actually knowing if this person has a penis or vagina, or what they were born with, without getting to know them and/or seeing this person nude. For damn near every interaction we have with people, we do not rely on chromosomes or anatomy to judge sex, but rather various social cues.
As for reckless and cruel, with the high numbers of transsexuals who report improvements in their quality and enjoyment of life from transitioning, and with plenty of research to back these claims up, there is no reason to assume such a thing is rec

The medical profession's endorsement of the option of "hacking away at one's genitals" in response to one's own self perception when there's no conclusive evidence that the disposition isn't sinister or capable of being corrected is abhorrent to me.

Such a position does not stand against evidence: Transsexuals are often morbidly depressed and suicidal pre-acceptance (one of the most high-risk suicide groups, actually), but with acceptance of their self and transition, generally mood improves tremendously and the risk of suicide plummets.
This link contains much information, and a great deal of research. If you're wanting a brief "101" study of gender dysphoria from a more academic perspective, there is no better source. You won't find anecdotes and stories, but you will find data, research, and evidence.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_co.../Standards of Care V7 - 2011 WPATH (2)(1).pdf

 

[Augustus]

Umm, feminists. Not sure what particular "sect" they ascribe to, particularly. But gender as a social construct is rather a popular sentiment in Australia. Insofar as vocal feminism is concerned.

While there are socialised aspects of gender identity, some people do seem to take it a little too far...

 

[SomeRandom]

With genitals? Those are only extremely rare cases considered to be biological mistakes.

What other biological variations are you referring to?

Chromosomes. I mean there are more than just XX and XY. And there are females with XY chromosomes and many other "wacky" combinations.

Agreed. But should all suicides be advocated in the interest of human autonomy?

Well, I support Euthanasia for the same reason (bodily autonomy) and even then I will readily state that it's far more complicated than mere suicide. So, no, because not all suicides are the same.

The medical profession's endorsement of the option of "hacking away at one's genitals" in response to one's own self perception when there's no conclusive evidence that the disposition isn't sinister or capable of being corrected is abhorrent to me.

Yeah well, they're the professionals, so I leave it to them to sort it out. If such an option works, then it works. If it doesn't then surely they'd have figured that out by now.

 

[SomeRandom]

While there are socialised aspects of gender identity, some people do seem to take it a little too far...

Huh. Wow.

 

[Kirran]

I prefer to keep it simple and founded on fact:

XX = Female
XY = Male

Then, and only then, one can delve into differing personalities that don't venture outside that factual, biological definition.

I.e. "he's a man's man; too much testosterone," "that's girl's a little butch/tomboyish," "nice guy syndrome," etc. These are poor examples by my own admission, but you get what I'm hinting at.

This may be simple, but it is not founded on fact. There are people with other chromosomal combinations.

 

[Aštra’el]

Some people just do not understand how to most effectively harness and exploit the cards they were granted in life.

 

[Jumi]

I prefer to keep it simple and founded on fact:

XX = Female
XY = Male

Oversimplification.

What about those people whose chromosomes mismatch with the body gender? Such as this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some people just do not understand how to most effectively harness and exploit the cards they were granted in life.

Some people don't know how to acknowledge the problems of various groups and their scientifically support solutions as real. Some people do not know how to acknowledge that nature is not "black and white." Some people do not know how to acknowledge that just about everything to us, including even our most basic features, are far more complicated and elaborate than our societal "either-or" mentality realizes.

 

[Aštra’el]

@Shadow Wolf

What I said above applies to many, many people, transsexual or otherwise.

I am of the opinion however that each of our biological vessels inherently bestow upon us many strengths and abilities that can be amplified exponentially by the decision to accept and embrace them fully. When I listen to people complain about their bodies, about being "born into" the "wrong" sex or race or genes or whatever, I don't even feel pity for them. I am instead appalled at their inacceptance of their default settings, and their choice to ignore the fact that there are still countless people out there less fortunate than them. The sooner one accepts who and what they are, the sooner they might embrace their strengths and adapt to their weaknesses, to move forward and evolve as they Will and choose what they are to become. It pleases me to know that there are those (transgender or otherwise) who adopt this mindset instead of drowning in misery and hating on the default settings of their bodies (genes, sex, etc).

There are some exceptions, however... that is, certain people who- despite falling victim to a dramatic psychological descent due to the inacceptance of their own biological vessels- are still deserving of my pity. People born with an incredible predisposition to cancer, genetically inherited deformities or diseases, etc.. I do pity these people. I have made the argument before in favor of the widespread acceptance and integration of a next-gen eugenics system with intent to abolish these unfortunate and undesirable anomalies from the collective human gene pool as much as possible... so that future generations might be born with stronger, more capable, adaptable and survivable biological vessels.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Back in 2007, I took a sociology unit that explored gender as a social construct as distinguished from biological sex; the latter of which clearly shows, empirically, that there are only two sexes that cannot be altered: male and female.

When exploring gender as a social construct in the sociology class, it dissected and unpacked conceptions of masculine/feminine and the reasons behind our conceptions of it; including the ways in which huge portions of society have both colored it and overlooked the potential to consider gender as a social construct to begin with.

I'm in no way arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to dress and behave how they like (ensuring that they don't violate another person's human rights), but is there any conclusive, empirical evidence that transsexuality is not either a mental disorder/illness or a derivative of some form of mental disorder/illness?

Good ol' Milo makes some great points about how humanity's attempts to explore and establish humane, conclusive evidence about transsexuality (so that it can be approached in an appropriate way - by society and transsexual individuals) has been completely torn down during this decade. He goes on to say (as easily as it can be inferred) that this is actually inhumane and dangerous to transsexuals to proceed with a certain idea without adequate research and studies being conducted or concluded:

From my own experiences in the real world*, the only people in drag that I've ever met who seemed to live arguably well-adjusted lives were gay men going out partying in gay districts who would not consider themselves to be transsexual but rather just gay and having fun with a gimmick or fetish that appealed to them.

* - "real world" beyond the media, internet discussion; my own social experiences

Yesterday, I saw a man with a 5 o'clock shadow rush past me in the street screaming things to himself (not on the phone or anything - looked genuinely psychotic) who reeked of **** and ****.

Back in college, the only transgender guy I knew of was generally thought of, by the campus who knew him, as a confirmed deranged pervert. This was not because he eventually started dressing like a woman and wore a wig, it was because he would routinely invade the privacy of women that he shared a dorm with.

The more I hear it, the term "cis" or "cis-gender" is getting on my nerves because it's seems to be unnecessarily labeling and and making distinctions between people who are really just... people; as in, men and women. Not men, women, [fill in the blank], [fill in the blank], [fill in the blank], etc.

As stated above, I'm asking for assistance as to how it has been scientifically (to be more specific: psychologically) confirmed that transsexuality is not the manifestation of something that is of a sinister mental health concern. This is in no way an expression of bigotry.

One of the first things they taught us in sociology was how far away on the other end of the spectrum sociology (especially gender studies) is when considered as an empirical discipline within the faculty of sciences.

For example: <---Math------------Physics------------Biology------------Psychology------------Sociology--->

Or, am I, at 28 years old, just becoming a dinosaur? I believe that I'm open-minded and objective enough to accept some of the more progressive ideas about identity politics if I am presented with empirical facts, studies and data that reach a reasonable conclusion.

So far, all I've really seen is a bunch of anecdotes.

You seem to be conflating a number of things here. People can identify as a particular gender (their gender identity) without necessarily wanting to change their biological sex (transsexualism) or to wear clothes generally thought of as clothes worn by someone of a different gender/sex to themselves (transvestism).

I'm happy to put myself forward as an example (okay, another anecdote, but still a kind of empirical):

Biological sex: chromosomally, I am XXY (some would say that makes me intersex, some would say I have Klinefelter's Syndrome, some would say I am a man because I have a Y chromosome). In terms of my genitalia, I am what is generally considered to be a man/male.

Gender: I identify as genderqueer/queer. I was born with the assumption that I 'have' a male gender. Some people would say I am therefore transgender. Others reserve that term for transsexuals. I have no desire to change my biological sex (but can completely understand those who do). I typically wear clothes generally considered to be 'menswear', but more for reasons of pragmatism in my current socio-cultural context than anything else.

Sexual orientation (whilst we're on this broad subject): these days, polysexual (formerly, I would have said pansexual, but I can't yet say that I have come across every gender/sex out there, so can't say for sure!).

Other people who have the same biological sex as me may identify as men and have a heterosexual sexual orientation. Or they may have a homosexual or bisexual orientation. Some may like to dress in 'women's clothes', some may not. Or they may identify as a woman, but have no desire to change their biological sex. Or they may. And so on.

Does that help at all?

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Does that help at all?

Yeah kinda. I've been thoroughly impressed by the overall response to this thread. This forum rocks tits.

 

[HonestJoe]

Damn, that sucks. Because I agree with you; and in doing so, it seems like discussing the issue might not go very far in terms of establishing anything empirical.

We'll never get anything empirical from just discussing things and I don't think we can get much empirical in psychology at all, especially not the kind of specifically applied answers you're looking for.

Fair enough. I've never known a transgender person not to have severe psychological hangups though. But like you said, I might not have ever known the difference

I've never know anyone without psychological hangups. I mean, here you are with your negative obsession with transgenders and here I am with my irrational compulsion to respond to you.

It's also worth noting that if someone is transgender and grows up constantly being told how transgenders are crazy, messed up and wrong, they're probably going to develop some psychological hangups! I'm regularly impressed how strong and composed those I know actually are.

This is the most important issue though: we do indeed have the capacity to research these things scientifically and empirically, but we don't due to identity politics which does humanity an enormous injustice. It's as bad as bigotry IMO.

That doesn't make your bigotry OK.

I'm not quite as negative about prospects as I may have sounded. I think we can, are and will continue to engage in proper scientific research in this area, not focused on transgenderism alone but taking a much wider view on the complexities and mysteries of human self-identity. And I think that will continue to happen despite people like you.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

We'll never get anything empirical from just discussing things and I don't think we can get much empirical in psychology at all, especially not the kind of specifically applied answers you're looking for.

I've never know anyone without psychological hangups. I mean, here you are with your negative obsession with transgenders and here I am with my irrational compulsion to respond to you.

It's also worth noting that if someone is transgender and grows up constantly being told how transgenders are crazy, messed up and wrong, they're probably going to develop some psychological hangups! I'm regularly impressed how strong and composed those I know actually are.

That doesn't make your bigotry OK.

I'm not quite as negative about prospects as I may have sounded. I think we can, are and will continue to engage in proper scientific research in this area, not focused on transgenderism alone but taking a much wider view on the complexities and mysteries of human self-identity. And I think that will continue to happen despite people like you.

Wow - not a proportionate response at all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not quite as negative about prospects as I may have sounded. I think we can, are and will continue to engage in proper scientific research in this area, not focused on transgenderism alone but taking a much wider view on the complexities and mysteries of human self-identity. And I think that will continue to happen despite people like you.

The link I gave earlier does give tons of research in gender dysphoria and the things that go into treating it. And while gender dysphoria is the primary focus, it also does bring attention to "gender nonconforming" (I think that's the term used, though it's been awhile since I've read it myself so I could be wrong) individuals as a whole. It's because of these studies that we know the suicide risk among transsexuals dramatically decreases from the processes of acceptance and transition. It's how we know psychologically their moods improve tremendously. It's also how we know their biggest issues aren't with being transgender, but rather the ton of crap they have to endure from the rest of society.