Trinitarian mystery

[Quiddity]

John Paul II in a General Audience of Nov 30, 1988 said: "If Jesus feels abandoned by the Father, He knows, however, that that is not really so. He Himself said: 'I and the Father are one. ' ... . dominant in His mind Jesus has the clear vision of God and the certainty of His union with the Father. But in the sphere bordering on the senses, and therefore more subject to the impressions, emotions and influences of the internal and external experiences of pain, Jesus' human soul is reduced to a wasteland, and He no longer feels the presence of the Father... . However, Jesus knew that by this ultimate phase of His sacrifice, reaching the intimate core of His being, He completed the work of reparation which was the purpose of His sacrifice for the expiation of sins."

How can Christ not feel the presence of the Father?

 

[Michel07]

John Paul II in a General Audience of Nov 30, 1988 said: "If Jesus feels abandoned by the Father, He knows, however, that that is not really so. He Himself said: 'I and the Father are one. ' ... . dominant in His mind Jesus has the clear vision of God and the certainty of His union with the Father. But in the sphere bordering on the senses, and therefore more subject to the impressions, emotions and influences of the internal and external experiences of pain, Jesus' human soul is reduced to a wasteland, and He no longer feels the presence of the Father... . However, Jesus knew that by this ultimate phase of His sacrifice, reaching the intimate core of His being, He completed the work of reparation which was the purpose of His sacrifice for the expiation of sins."

How can Christ not feel the presence of the Father?

I wonder if it could not have been a dichotomy of having been so close to the Father in the work of the Father as to not even being able to feel the distinction and separation of the Father.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Sounds like the Pope is talking about some kind of sensory overload. Jesus' human emotions and the actual pain of the passion so overwhelmed him that the presence of the Father receded. Although Jesus is God and The Father is God they are still distinct persons. The trinity is a mystery but I think that by emphasising this distiction in personhood we can say that although both Jesus and the Father are one in that they are both fully divine, they are distinct persons and so they can at least in theory be seperated from one another and not feel each others presence. They are one but they are also two. Mystery....

 

[Quiddity]

Sounds like the Pope is talking about some kind of sensory overload. Jesus' human emotions and the actual pain of the passion so overwhelmed him that the presence of the Father receded. Although Jesus is God and The Father is God they are still distinct persons. The trinity is a mystery but I think that by emphasising this distiction in personhood we can say that although both Jesus and the Father are one in that they are both fully divine, they are distinct persons and so they can at least in theory be seperated from one another and not feel each others presence. They are one but they are also two. Mystery....

Excellent explanation RLW...

That makes sense. The decision for God to become man had to in some way limit Him (by choice mind you) and "seperation" is just one of those choices.

That make sense?

 

[Runlikethewind]

Excellent explanation RLW...

That makes sense. The decision for God to become man had to in some way limit Him (by choice mind you) and "seperation" is just one of those choices.

That make sense?

That's what I am getting at. Being seperate persons necessarily means that there can be a varying degree of seperation. When Jesus became man he chose to seperate himself as one person (Jesus) from another person (The Father).

 

[jabberwockybruno]

Here is what I think when I read that passage.

Jesus came to earth to live a perfect life for us, and to die to pay the penalty for our sins. When he was on the cross, he became sin. If he was to pay for our sins then he first had to take ownership of them.
Now, God the Father was perfectly capable of rescuing Jesus from the cross, but it was his will that Jesus die, so he (Jesus) could complete his work of paying the penalty for the sins of the world.
God the Father "forsook" Jesus by not rescuing him from the cross, in order that Jesus complete his work of paying the penalty for sin.