Trinity

[Nehustan]

I was brought up in a faith holding to the Nicean creed. On the occasion of my confirmation, which coincidentally I have now recanted in writing, and the lessons leading up to it the subject of trinity obviously arose. Then and subsequently when I have asked for a concise explanation of the trinity, how it figures cosmologically, scientifically etc., I was often told 'Its a mystery.' which is little more that saying 'I Tego Arcana Dei!'. The thing is I have found that The God I have a faith in does not shroud in mystery, he makes things very very simple. In fact he has laid out the details so clearly that even atheists can begin to see 'struth. It seems to me that if one understands something truly, by the very nature of understanding it, one can communicate it. If one needs to resort to 'Its a mystery' that usually amounts to 'I actually don't understand it myself, but I'm damned if I'm going to admit that to you, you little pipsqueak!'

So I'm interested in what the Trinity means to people, and how they manage to explain it to themself and others without resorting to 'It's a mystery!' Also I do understand basic kinship terms like Father, and Son, so before anyone tries to say 'Its simple, there's God and Jesus is his Son.' That's not an explanation, it's an unqualified statement.

 

[Quiddity]

I was brought up in a faith holding to the Nicean creed. On the occasion of my confirmation, which coincidentally I have now recanted in writing, and the lessons leading up to it the subject of trinity obviously arose. Then and subsequently when I have asked for a concise explanation of the trinity, how it figures cosmologically, scientifically etc., I was often told 'Its a mystery.' which is little more that saying 'I Tego Arcana Dei!'. The thing is I have found that The God I have a faith in does not shround in mystery, he makes things very very simple. In fact he has laid out the details so clearly that even atheists can begin to see 'struth. It seems to me that if one understands something truly, by the very nature of understanding it, one can communicate it. If one needs to resort to 'Its a mystery' that usually amounts to 'I actually don't understand it myself, but I'm damned if I'm going to admit that to you, you little pipsqueak!'

So I'm interested in what the Trinity means to people, and how they manage to explain it to themself and others without resorting to 'It's a mystery!' Also I do understand basic kinship terms like Father, and Son, so before anyone tries to say 'Its simple, there's God and Jesus is his Son.' That's not an explanation, it's an unqualified statement.

Having a simple faith doesn't make it any easier. You still have to prove God to the atheist. How is that simple? This isn't an attempt to cover up my lack of giving you an adequate explanation of the Trinity. This is only to show that anyone that holds faith in God believe in mystery in some for or another.

Here is a good historical reference to start. Perhaps some of their explainations can help: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22344

But for my contribution I will say that God has the ability to be in more then one place. If you question the Trinity then that should be questioned as well. How do you explain to someone that God can do such a thing? I can't and perhaps someone more eluminating will do a better job.

~Victor

 

[Aqualung]

It doesn't mean anything to me. I find the trinity wholly incomprehensible, and I don't believe in it. (I bet that helps you out a lot, huh? )

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

:149: You are wrong, it is a qualified statement because jesus himself makes that statement numerous times in the good book if properly researched that right way you must begin to understand the transpersonal other.To me the trinity is based on lie to decive the masses into beliveing a certin part the whole truth instead of the total picture of the GODHEAD.

 

[Quiddity]

It doesn't mean anything to me. I find the trinity wholly incomprehensible, and I don't believe in it. (I bet that helps you out a lot, huh? )

So you don't believe in it because it's "wholly incomprehensible"? I hope you see where this is heading.

~Victor

 

[Nehustan]

Having a simple faith doesn't make it any easier. You still have to prove God to the atheist. How is that simple? This isn't an attempt to cover up my lack of giving you an adequate explanation of the Trinity. This is only to show that anyone that holds faith in God believe in mystery in some for or another.

Here is a good historical reference to start. Perhaps some of their explainations can help: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22344

But for my contribution I will say that God has the ability to be in more then one place. If you question the Trinity then that should be questioned as well. How do you explain to someone that God can do such a thing? I can't and perhaps someone more eluminating will do a better job.

~Victor

I think that faith is not what I am talking about, it is simple, you either believe or you don't, pretty binary. I think I am referring to religious knowledge more than faith, and to my mind religious knowledge should be simple. If one believes in God, it serves no purpose to 'blind people with (religious) science' if people come across things that appear paradoxical it can do a few things, destroy their 'faith' if their 'faith' was based on knowledge and thus not really faith at all, make them change their 'faith' when actually they should just acquire more knowledge. or make them become seekers of knowledge...oh and I suppose say things like 'It's a mystery!'

For me the paradox you posit about God in more than one place is answered simply. Place implies dimension which implies quantifiable which implies measurable, thus that which existed prior to the creation is 'without place', i.e. beyond. Not bound by the contrictions of the created world, whether that world is seen and known or unseen, and thus unknown.

:149: You are wrong, it is a qualified statement because jesus himself makes that statement numerous times in the good book if properly researched that right way you must begin to understand the transpersonal other.To me the trinity is based on lie to decive the masses into beliveing a certin part the whole truth instead of the total picture of the GODHEAD.

regarding 'GODHEAD' manifest within the creation i.e. Dalai Lama, Siddartha, Krishna, I think my delineation of the absolute beyond illusrates my opinion of such concepts.

 

[Quiddity]

I think that faith is not what I am talking about, it is simple, you either believe or you don't, pretty binary. I think I am referring to religious knowledge more than faith, and to my mind religious knowledge should be simple.

You lost me here.. What exactly is "more then faith"? There is no such thing. Faith builds upon reason. You can only increase more in your faith. Please clarify.

If one believes in God, it serves no purpose to 'blind people with (religious) science' if people come across things that appear paradoxical it can a few things, detroy their 'faith' if their 'faith' was based on knowledge and thus not really faith at all, make them change their 'faith' when actually they should just acquire more knowledge. or make them become seekers of knowledge...oh and I suppose say things like 'It's a mystery!'

It almost sounds like you are saying that you either have faith or reason/knowledge. Why not both?

For me the paradox you posit about God in more than one place is answered simply. Place implies dimension which implies quantifiable which implies measurable, thus that which existed prior to the creation is 'without place', i.e. beyond. Not bound by the contrictions of the created world, whether that world is seen and known or unseen, and thus unknown.

I am not speaking in dimensional terms here. If I was, then God would be unable to duplicate himself in one the same dimension. I don't hold such a belief. God is not bound by time or dimensions.

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Yep, and Yup.

Tell me Victor, from the Catholic perspective, how is the Holy Ghost aspect related? I wouldnt pretend to speak for Christians on this.

Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit = The 3rd person in the Trinity

~Victor

 

[Bangbang]

Here are some explanations of the Trinity. Have fun!

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/trinity.html

http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm

 

[Aqualung]

So you don't believe in it because it's "wholly incomprehensible"? I hope you see where this is heading.

~Victor

No.

 

[Bangbang]

Hi Aqualung.................what does LDS stand for?

 

[Quiddity]

No.

I doubt the Holy Trinity is the only "wholly uncrompehensible" ideal that is in a persons faith.

~Victor

 

[Aqualung]

Hi Aqualung.................what does LDS stand for?

Latter-day Saints, better known as Mormons.

I doubt the Holy Trinity is the only "wholly uncrompehensible" ideal that is in a persons faith.

~Victor

Perhaps. I guess the trinity isn't "wholly" incomprehensible, and there are certainly confusing things in all religions, but I would maintain that the trinity is the most incomprehensible doctrine taught by any christian denomination.

 

[Quiddity]

Latter-day Saints, better known as Mormons.

Perhaps. I guess the trinity isn't "wholly" incomprehensible, and there are certainly confusing things in all religions, but I would maintain that the trinity is the most incomprehensible doctrine taught by any christian denomination.

The Eucharist, walking on water, splitting a sea, etc. are quite incomprehensible. But I understand why you choose on the Trinity...

~Victor

 

[Aqualung]

The Eucharist, walking on water, splitting a sea, etc. are quite incomprehensible. But I understand why you choose on the Trinity...

~Victor

What's the Eucharist? :areyoucra And those aren't incomprehensible. Those were done by the power of Christ!

 

[Nehustan]

Might as well add a few thoughts. I have touched on this in other threads so I will just put them here too.

It seems to be that Jahweh is t'he father', and thus the son would be as the father, 'Jahweh'. In fact we are told in the Genesis story that Jawheh created 'Adam' in his image, etc. But anyone who knows the Hebrew will know that 'the son' is also Jeheshuah, and thus we come to Ruach Elohim. But surely if 'the son' is Jeheshuah, then too 'the father'. So by my undertsanding we have

Jahweh, IHVH, 'The Father'
Jeheshuah, IHShVH, 'The Son'
Ruach Elohim, RVCh ELHIM, 'The Spirit proceeding from ELH'

Ok so thats the Christian Trinity, so.....

where does ELH fit into this schema??

It is clear from 'Christian' scripture that 'The Son is at the right hand of The Father' in 'heaven' Jeheshuah and Jahweh, with the 'Holy spirit' there somewhere.

So for me this seems very anthropomorphical when one considers The Absolute and Infinte God, ELOAH.

I think what I want to know is if Jahweh is in (the) Heaven(s), or riding around with Jeheshuah in what I puntastically like to call 'A kettle of fish', who created the heavens, i.e. space? The reason for my assumption is that 'The city' which descends sounds pretty much to me like a 'big kettle of fish'. Go with me...I'm just thinking aloud here. Is it possible that 'Jahweh' created this stellar system in a greater universe created by ELH, I have no answers on this that I can present. But one thing that has always bothered me about the Genesis story is this...

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.' KJV Genesis 1:1-3

Here it seems that the earth was created prior to the sun, bit sticky when considered in the light of the present scientific paradigm. Let's not even get started on the evolution of man...what about the evolution of stellar systems post 'sun burst' i.e. planetary systems. Of course it may be added here that the depth of scripture in English is light, as where you see the word God, in the Hebrew there are different words. I would put it that ELH is the God that created the heavens, i.e Space, and an 'earth' that was 'formless and void' i.e. potentially there, but not actually there. Any subsequent creation within 'the heavens', again i.e. space, would be in the name of ELH, and from the cosmic elements created at the birth of the universe, the universe created by ELH.

Regarding Jahweh, as an afterthought, and just in case anyone is under the illusion that I am giving him 'bad press', whatever or whoever he is, it seems that in the history of man he has been a benevolent force, little by little raising the conciousness of man to a true understanding of ELH.

A few links to show the complication I am talking about, by the way ignore the english translation ADNI, it is invariably a complication.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Spirit_of_God/spirit_of_god.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

 

[Quiddity]

What's the Eucharist?

Eucharist

Those were done by the power of Christ!

Exactly !!

 

[Aqualung]

Eucharist


Exactly !!

Pfff, so you think it's through the power of Christ that the trinity exists?!
Joking.

 

[Quiddity]

Pfff, so you think it's through the power of Christ that the trinity exists?!
Joking.

Yup...yup...

~Victor

 

[Nehustan]

You lost me here.. What exactly is "more then faith"? There is no such thing. Faith builds upon reason. You can only increase more in your faith. Please clarify.
It almost sounds like you are saying that you either have faith or reason/knowledge. Why not both?
I am not speaking in dimensional terms here. If I was, then God would be unable to duplicate himself in one the same dimension. I don't hold such a belief. God is not bound by time or dimensions.

~Victor

Sorry Victor missed this post!!! I believe faith is inherent in man when created, a faith in The God. Religious knowledge, which you are of course right in saying increases faith, like oxygen to a flame (a flame without oxygen going out!!!), is manifest within creation via the word. But I believe that faith and religious knowledge, tho' complimentary are not the same.