True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

Nonsense. Paul was the first Christian writer, his authentic letters before 65 ad and earlier. Do you dispute the authenticity or dating? Or transmission?

I don't know much. But I don't think you'd be in good company amongst NT scholars. I do know that much ...

My guess this is a typo and 50 years was meant. Would be good to ask first.

I have lost count of the mistakes made because of typo's.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, my family were Catholics. There was so much fear built into their teachings. Does a kid dare not go to Church on Sunday? It's a mortal sin, and they'd go straight to hell if they die. And when the kid did commit a mortal sin, they better get to Church and confess their sins right away.

I was so afraid that while sitting in the pew, I wouldn't put my feet on the floor... thinking that it floor would open up and I'd slide right on down into hell.

Here is my story. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. Both my parents had been raised in Christianity, but they both dropped out before their three children were born. My father became an atheist and my mother retained a belief in God, although she never talked about it. I only found that out much later.

So I never had any exposure to any church growing up, not until my father died when I was 12 and I went to live with relatives. The first relatives we lived with were Roman Catholics and they made my sister and I go to their church. That was a very scary experience. Another relative was Lutheran and we went to that church once and it was less scary. Then when I got a little older, my mother decided to send us to a Catholic High School. That was really scary since I had no idea what was going on when they had mass, etc., but after a year I was transferred back to a public school.

Fast forward, when I graduated from high school in 1970 I moved from upstate NY to S California to attend college and it was during my first year of college that I discovered the Baha'i Faith and became a Bahai' along with my sister. My older brother had declared two years before that and about five years after I declared my mother declared. So all of the nuclear family were then Baha'is, although none of us were raised as Baha'is.

 

[Truthseeker]

Nonsense. Paul was the first Christian writer, his authentic letters before 65 ad and earlier. Do you dispute the authenticity or dating? Or transmission?

I don't know much. But I don't think you'd be in good company amongst NT scholars. I do know that much ...

i suspect he is talking about an actual Bible that still exists today, not when the texts were originally written. Paul's letters, as far as I know were the first texts written around 50 C.E. The Gospels were written later, apparently.

 

[Truthseeker]

Here is my story. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. Both my parents had been raised in Christianity, but they both dropped out before their three children were born. My father became an atheist and my mother retained a belief in God, although she never talked about it. I only found that out much later.

So I never had any exposure to any church growing up, not until my father died when I was 12 and I went to live with relatives. The first relatives we lived with were Roman Catholics and they made my sister and I go to their church. That was a very scary experience. Another relative was Lutheran and we went to that church once and it was less scary. Then when I got a little older, my mother decided to send us to a Catholic High School. That was really scary since I had no idea what was going on when they had mass, etc., but after a year I was transferred back to a public school.

Fast forward, when I graduated from high school in 1970 I moved from upstate NY to S California to attend college and it was during my first year of college that I discovered the Baha'i Faith and became a Bahai' along with my sister. My older brother had declared two years before that and about five years after I declared my mother declared. So all of the nuclear family were then Baha'is, although none of us were raised as Baha'is.

I didn't know you lived with relatives and went to church at any point! I also, as you know, learned of the Baha'i Faith from my older brother. However, I was estranged from him after I loved him in childhood. I think being sent to Lutherwood in Indianapolis for a few years messed up my relationship with my brother and my mother. I was not impressed at all with the Lutheran services we troubled youth were forced to attend, especially the communion part. I was used to the no rituals at all in the Quaker church, and the Lutherans took these rituals seriously.

After I became a Baha'i, none of the rest of my relatives became a Baha'i.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

First we got together on the fact that saying that clouds could be--

--and now I'm getting from you that there's only one meaning of what the Bible says. My thinking is that there are many good understandings of what the Bible says but what I can not handle is what appears as contradictions.

The cloud is clearly a chariot because of the shared word group positioning as I showed to you. The one meaning of word positioning can solve what appears to be contradictions. If good words share the same position as evil words then both ways are clearly correct.

In this way the blessings are as the curses:
"If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the Lord of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart". Malachi

And the curses are as the blessings:
"To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings". Psalm

It is like the Bible talking about eating bread and drinking wine, and also talking about eating the flesh of men and drinking their blood. It is true to say the Bread is the Flesh, and the Wine is the Blood. That is their correct word positioning.

Bread is in Flesh position and Wine is in blood position:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

The bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood, and the oil is the bones.

"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm.

To know the one meaning is to know both the good and the evil. You can't know one without also knowing the other. No contradictions.

 

[Trailblazer]

After I became a Baha'i, none of the rest of my relatives became a Baha'i.

From what I have heard, that is more common than my experience.
I believe that my family was truly blessed, but I don't know what we did to deserve that.

I know I should be more grateful because I have the most important gift one could ever have.
I am grateful, despite what I write to you about religion in our conversations.
God knows I am grateful and that is all that really matters!

A person can be grateful for what they have and still sad about what they don't have.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

@WonderingWorrier I offer a link, there is a series of a few talks in the links following the talk referenced below. You can read and make an honest and just determination of what is offered about Ahmadi.

Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

This is the third response in the series of responses to a video by Ahmadi Answers attacking the Bahá’í Faith. To read the first piece, click here. To read the second piece, click here. To re…

bahaipen.wordpress.com

Regards Tony

Do you really think whoever claims to be the messiah first is the true messiah?

“In the time of Muhammad many false prophets were born. But the liar always arises later. The truthful arrives earlier and then, in envy, false prophets come along. Nobody can say that someone after receiving revelation from God claimed to be Messiah, before my claim".

"The declaration of The Báb (Mahdi) was in 1844 and Bahá’u’lláh’s (Messiah) declaration in the Garden of Ridvan to a group of close followers was in 1863. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a mujaddid in 1882 (he started taking allegiance from people as their mujaddid in 1889)".

"On 3rd September 1907, Allama Syed Mustafa Rumi published an excellent essay in Paisa Akhbar Lahore in which he developed the case that on the one hand, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad admits that The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh have precedence of time over him in the claim of being Mahdi and Messiah respectively, yet at the same time, he claims to be the first claimant of Messiahship (and also of being Mahdi) without negation and refutation of the claims of The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh".


Here is a link that shows 22 other claimants that came before Baha'u'llah:

List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you think you can identify true prophets and false prophets by the order they appear?

 

[Kathryn]

My parents were Methodist. I remember clearly thinking I had somehow missed the boat, if I couldn't find my parents. I thought they had been raptured and I was left behind.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I did not say that it can be used for either proving Baha'u'llah true or Ahmad false.

No, I haven't, because I know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. Ahmad can't fulfill prophecies that were already fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. That's logically impossible.

That's true. Any man can be a lying imposter.

The difference is who he was as a person and what he taught.
I believe Ahmad is the false prophet because of who he was and what he taught, which I believe is false.

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a true prophet because of who He was as a person and what He taught, which I believe is true.

A false prophet could say anything he wanted to say.

No, that is not the only reason I think Ahmad was a false prophet. I explained the reason above.

No, I don't think I am making a mistake because it makes no sense to me that an old religion needs to be revived.
No, nothing Ahmad says needs to be in accord with the Baha'i view. You can choose whichever view you want, or choose neither one.

Any man can be a false prophet.
As such, one of them (or both of them) could be a false prophet, but both of them cannot be a true prophet.

For arguments sake we could look at the Bible from an Ahmad point of view.
Do you think it would be possible that we could find Bible verses that sound exactly like events in the life of Ahmad?
Do you think we could also find verses that sound vaguely (twisted) about events in the life of Ahmad?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

Yes, Ahmad did work and actions, but I don't think they yielded good fruits.

Something true prophets have which false prophets don't have are good fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You are still talking but not actually saying anything. You are just saying Baha'u'llah is a true prophet because there are good fruits and evil fruits. You have not shown any difference between Baha'u'llah and Ahmad. You have not clarified any difference between good fruits and evil fruits.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you really think whoever claims to be the messiah first is the true messiah?

“In the time of Muhammad many false prophets were born. But the liar always arises later. The truthful arrives earlier and then, in envy, false prophets come along. Nobody can say that someone after receiving revelation from God claimed to be Messiah, before my claim".

"The declaration of The Báb (Mahdi) was in 1844 and Bahá’u’lláh’s (Messiah) declaration in the Garden of Ridvan to a group of close followers was in 1863. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a mujaddid in 1882 (he started taking allegiance from people as their mujaddid in 1889)".

"On 3rd September 1907, Allama Syed Mustafa Rumi published an excellent essay in Paisa Akhbar Lahore in which he developed the case that on the one hand, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad admits that The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh have precedence of time over him in the claim of being Mahdi and Messiah respectively, yet at the same time, he claims to be the first claimant of Messiahship (and also of being Mahdi) without negation and refutation of the claims of The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh".


Here is a link that shows 22 other claimants that came before Baha'u'llah:

List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you think you can identify true prophets and false prophets by the order they appear?

As I said in my post, your choice after an honest and just determination.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For arguments sake we could look at the Bible from an Ahmad point of view.
Do you think it would be possible that we could find Bible verses that sound exactly like events in the life of Ahmad?
Do you think we could also find verses that sound vaguely (twisted) about events in the life of Ahmad?

As I said in my post, your choice after an honest and just determination.

Regards Tony

That would be up to you, as it is you that has to make that honest and just determination.

One question, who would Elijah be for Ahmadi?

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

As I said in my post, your choice after an honest and just determination.

Regards Tony

I will have to say they are both false prophets because the words of true prophets are structured. They both don't have it.

You cant build a word structure like Bible prophets with single symbol sentences. I have looked into the bahai writings. Unless Baha'u'llah speaks a two or more symbol sentence which can assessed for its positioning he is a false prophet. He needs to show that he knows where to put his words.

Can you (or anyone) find in all the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah where they say more than one word in a sentence?

If you can find one I am willing to change my mind about him.