True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I start the OP with a disclaimer. This is my view based on my understanding of what God has offered Humanity in the religious scriptures. As it is placed in the debate section. I will state this position is that of being founded in the Truth of those scriptures and as such is not able to be proven false (Supported by Scriptures). If you are on the team that want to prove any aspect false. Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Everything is from the One God.

Romans 11:36 "All things come from God, through God, and return to God. Praise him for ever! Yes, it is so!"

That is the position of Truth used to establish the Authenticity of the Prophets, Messengers or Manifestations, all these donate the person who is "Annointed" of the One God, also known as "Messiah" in prophecy. (For this OP Messenger will be used)

Isaiah 11:2 "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

The Annointed Ones, also are supported by one that prepares the way.

Isaiah 40: 1-11 I will.use verse 3

A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1 supports this for John the Baptist for Jesus, who jesus said was Elijah and Elijah always comes first.

"2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”, 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”"

It would then be logical that all Messengers are supported by a person preparing the way, an "Elijah" proclaiming the soon to arrive Messenger.

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This is not a time of peace as Malachi in verse 6 continues to offer, "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

At this time all things are made new. A True Messenger will give a New Revelation, they will not piggyback from the last Message and identify as one who is giving the last message in its true form. They will be born into a Faith, but claim a new Message from God and give a New book.

Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’”

There are many considerations, but I will start the OP with but one more consideration, that is the the perdon of the Messenger will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

In the cause of the Bab, He was also the Elijah for Baha'u'llah.

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

It is also possible we can broach the truth of any other claimed Messenger.

Regards Tony @CG Didymus

 

[danieldemol]

Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

To clarify, are you saying we can only respond if we can find some Abrahamic scripture to back up our view-points?

I personally would have posted in scriptural debates, but carry on.

 

[danieldemol]

Here is an Abrahamic scripture from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad;

'This eminence has been granted to me because of following the Holy Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Had I not been one of his followers and had I not been following his teachings faithfully, I could never have achieved this high status of communion with Allah, even though my good deeds had piled up to the height of the mountains. This is because all prophethoods have now come to an end. Now no law-bearing prophet can ever be raised, but a non-law-bearing prophet can still appear. But he must always be a follower of the Holy Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. I am, therefore, a follower as well as a prophet.'
Tajalliyti Ilahiyya, pg 19-20. Roohani Khazain, Vol 20, pg 411

Source: Allegation that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a law-giving prophet | Claims of the Promised Messiah

And here is an Abrahamic scripture from Baha'u'llah;


'Notwithstanding all the verses of the Qur’án, and the recognized traditions, which are all indicative of a new Faith, a new Law, and a new Revelation, this generation still waiteth in expectation of beholding the promised One who should uphold the Law of the Muḥammadan Dispensation'

SOURCE: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 221-257

So we have what appear to be contradictory Abrahamic scriptures and no personal opinions are allowed, now what?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To clarify, are you saying we can only respond if we can find some Abrahamic scripture to back up our view-points?

I personally would have posted in scriptural debates, but carry on.

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here is an Abrahamic scripture from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad;

'This eminence has been granted to me because of following the Holy Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Had I not been one of his followers and had I not been following his teachings faithfully, I could never have achieved this high status of communion with Allah, even though my good deeds had piled up to the height of the mountains. This is because all prophethoods have now come to an end. Now no law-bearing prophet can ever be raised, but a non-law-bearing prophet can still appear. But he must always be a follower of the Holy Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. I am, therefore, a follower as well as a prophet.'
Tajalliyti Ilahiyya, pg 19-20. Roohani Khazain, Vol 20, pg 411

Source: Allegation that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a law-giving prophet | Claims of the Promised Messiah

And here is an Abrahamic scripture from Baha'u'llah;


'Notwithstanding all the verses of the Qur’án, and the recognized traditions, which are all indicative of a new Faith, a new Law, and a new Revelation, this generation still waiteth in expectation of beholding the promised One who should uphold the Law of the Muḥammadan Dispensation'

SOURCE: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 221-257

So we have what appear to be contradictory Abrahamic scriptures and no personal opinions are allowed, now what?

In my OP position Mirza Ghulam Ahmad would not be a true independent Messenger that can speak on Behalf of God, or via Muhammad. The quote you posted would not then be a scripture from the God, but a statement of a man granting themselves a false station.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad uses the Quran and His interpretation and base for Religion, there is no break from Islam, it is not a new day, but another attempt at Islam reform. He also was gifted a box of books from the Bab, which he studied and stated he had mastered those teachings, what he learned from the Bab altered his teachings, after becoming familiar with them.

Source link. Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

Thus he was a man of learning, no a man Annointed of God with a given Message, but a man making up his own from the Messengers.

I would offer this is the catagory of a wolf in sheeps clothing, but in saying that, I see also see many good teachings were carried across, so the followers are practicing many good qualities.

Regards Tony

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"True Prophets" are an illusion or a lie.

 

[an anarchist]

Can you clarify your argument in a concise manner?

I read your OP a couple times, and I am unsure what the debate point is in general. I just see a bunch of scripture.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you clarify your argument in a concise manner?

I read your OP a couple times, and I am unsure what the debate point is in general. I just see a bunch of scripture.

This would most likely then, for you, not be a debate worth participating in, that is, if you see no importance in Scriptures, that is what I would use in any reply, as supporting evidence of the statement made.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness"

Thus scripture can clarify our misunderstandings.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"True Prophets" are an illusion or a lie.

There are very few, only about every 1000 years do we see One. They are not an illusion, they walk the earth and are recorded in History.

Regards Tony

 

[Jimmy]

Colossians 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Jesus is more than a messenger. He is God made flesh.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are very few, only about every 1000 years do we see One. They are not an illusion, ...

No, they are a pretense.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Colossians 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Jesus is more than a messenger. He is God made flesh.

The "Image" explains this verse, an Image is not God, but the Image is creation, it a product of the Holy Spirit, the image God made humanity in.

" The Son is the image of the invisible God", not God.

Baha'u'llah offered this.

"The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”

That bond is the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Jimmy]

The "Image" explains this verse, an Image is not God, but the Image is creation, it a product of the Holy Spirit, the image God made humanity in.

" The Son is the image of the invisible God", not God.

Baha'u'llah offered this.

"The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”

That bond is the Messengers.

Regards Tony

I didn’t say he was god

 

[Jimmy]

The "Image" explains this verse, an Image is not God, but the Image is creation, it a product of the Holy Spirit, the image God made humanity in.

" The Son is the image of the invisible God", not God.

Baha'u'llah offered this.

"The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”

That bond is the Messengers.

Regards Tony

Well, the world is my home and I think it’s pretty cool.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, they are a pretense.

Your comment is, it is unsupported.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, the world is my home and I think it’s pretty cool.

The bounty was given for us to enjoy, as long as we do not become attached to it, or abuse its use.

Regards Tony

 

[Jimmy]

The bounty was given for us to enjoy, as long as we do not become attached to it, or abuse its use.

Regards Tony

I’m pretty attached to the air, water, food, sun, beautiful nature, tv, hobbies, my family etc.
I suppose I could just stare into space 24 seven and do nothing, but I’ll opt out of that

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’m pretty attached to the air, water, food, sun, beautiful nature, tv, hobbies, my family etc.
I suppose I could just stare into space 24 seven and do nothing, but I’ll opt out of that

Obviously you live in relitive safety, as do I, to make such a comment.

Regards Tony

 

[Jimmy]

Obviously you live in relitive safety, as do I, to make such a comment.

Regards Tony

I’m well aware of the suffering that goes on in the world. Should I suffer with them? Should I starve myself? Maybe turn off my heat this winter?

 

[danieldemol]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

Science and to a lesser degree reason are the only sound sources of knowledge that I know of, are they allowed in this debate?