Trump: "I've told them I want more weeks."

[Estro Felino]

I don't care for that question. So I am just honest and tell you how I feel, dear.

My point is that the pill works perfectly

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

My point is that the pill works perfectly

Not according to health data as I remember it. And your anecdotal experience is not scientific evidence. If you can link to an Italian government site even in Italian, then fine. But for Italy as such your experience is not evidence.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you don't believe me, ask a gynecologist.

Google is fun as I googled - contraceptive pill italy
"...
Accessibility & prescription status
A prescription was mandatory in order to buy any LNG EC product in Italy, until October 2015, when LNG EC pills were reclassified; since then, they can be dispensed in pharmacies without prescription (behind the counter), but only to women over 18 years of age."

Italy - ECEC

Emergency contraception (EC) is available in Italy: LNG EC, UPA EC, and the use of IUD for EC are included in guidelines for family planning, and local pharmacies distribute EC pills. EC is not reimbursed or covered by social security. Sexual & reproductive health background information...

www.ec-ec.org

 

[Guitar's Cry]

So..

-A woman gets pregnant, she doesn't want it but the man does. He has no say so its too bad, its going bye bye with an abortion.

-A woman gets pregnant, she wants it but the man doesn't. He has no say so its too bad, you are paying child support and etc for at least the next 18 years

So basically you are saying the man is just a sperm donor with no say in the matter either way

It's not so much that the male is a sperm donor (except in a strictly biological sense), but more that there isn't much of a choice. If the male voices his opinion and there is disagreement even after much discussion and attempt at resolution, a choice must be made. Who decides? The one with the most at stake.

 

[ratiocinator]

My point is that the pill works perfectly

No, it does not. It's very good (over 99% effective) if used absolutely correctly, but that drops to 94% for 'typical' use.

No medical pill for anything works perfectly (100% effective) and none is without possible side effects that will mean that not everybody can take it.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, it does not. It's very good (over 99% effective) if used absolutely correctly, but that drops to 94% for 'typical' use.

No medical pill for anything works perfectly (100% effective) and none is without possible side effects that will mean that not everybody can take it.

Well...there's also chastity as option if a woman cannot take the pill.

Or killing a fetus is more important than having unprotected sex?

 

[Estro Felino]

Google is fun as I googled - contraceptive pill italy
"...
Accessibility & prescription status
A prescription was mandatory in order to buy any LNG EC product in Italy, until October 2015, when LNG EC pills were reclassified; since then, they can be dispensed in pharmacies without prescription (behind the counter), but only to women over 18 years of age."

Italy - ECEC

Emergency contraception (EC) is available in Italy: LNG EC, UPA EC, and the use of IUD for EC are included in guidelines for family planning, and local pharmacies distribute EC pills. EC is not reimbursed or covered by social security. Sexual & reproductive health background information...

www.ec-ec.org

...and that confirms that the State demands that all women take the pill.

Instead of having dozens of abortions.

 

[ratiocinator]

Well...there's also chastity as option if a woman cannot take the pill.

Or using some other method, or using two methods to be sure. But human nature is human nature, and if, especially if there isn't good sex education available, accidents will happen.

The effectiveness of the pill still isn't 100%, even if you take it perfectly, and can also be affected by other factors such as illness (especially vomiting and diarrhoea) or interactions with other medication (even some herbal 'medicines').

Or killing a fetus is more important than having unprotected sex?

I don't think anybody here is actually arguing that unprotected sex (if you don't want children) is a good idea.

How are you going to define a 'fetus' in this case? Because, if you're going to call it 'killing' from conception, then fetuses get flushed all the time before women even know they're pregnant. If you're not, then you've got to make a choice as to when it becomes unacceptable.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...and that confirms that the State demands that all women take the pill.

Instead of having dozens of abortions.

And it contradicts your claim about going to a doctor, dearest.

 

[anna.]

I am pro-choice, because I don't think it is my business what a woman chooses to do about her pregnancy. For the vast majority of women, it must be one of the most difficult and personal decisions of their lives. It is heart-breaking that a man who wants to have a child fathers one, inadvertently or purposely, with a woman who does not want to carry his child to term. But it is still her body and her life that she has to make a decision about, not the father's. If a woman chooses not to marry him or have his child, that must certainly be devastating to him. But his stake in the outcome is less consequential than hers. That's my personal take on it.

Regarding the interest of the government, it is just a question of what makes sense from the perspective of civic need. What is the advantage or disadvantage to the collective well-being of the society it governs? Roe v Wade was in effect for about a half century, and the country did just fine. I understand that anti-abortionists consider abortions to be murder, but it really isn't from a legal perspective. Making it illegal has no general beneficial effect on public welfare, so the government has no clear interest or business in regulating a woman's pregnancy. Women have a right to make their own decisions about carrying pregnancies to term, and nobody is forcing anti-abortion men and women to abort pregnancies that they want to carry to term.

Thank you, your post was helpful. The first paragraph for your personal take, and the second on the subject of government interest.
On a personal level I am pro-life. But your second paragraph illustrates why I moved from only voting for pro-life candidates for the first half of my voting life (based on my beliefs and the understanding that to vote otherwise was contrary to my religious teaching) before I understood the principle of double effect and began voting for the Democratic candidate ever since. I'm still working out how to respect the existence of the unborn child (without the dismissiveness of viewing it as a parasite) and respecting the autonomy of the woman vs. the state (without the dismissiveness by which autonomy is dismissed by pro-life).

Insisting on calling the baby scientific terms when not in a scientific venue is a distancing method, imo. People don't say "Ow, I just bumped my hallux!" any more than they say "I'm having a zygote-blastocyst--fetus." Women know they're carrying a baby, and it's dehumanizing to pretend they're carrying a lump of cells all the way to the third trimester.

The best way to make abortion "safe, legal, and rare" is to make contraception safe, easy, and free, and I'm all for that.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The best way to make abortion "safe, legal, and rare" is to make contraception safe, easy, and free, and I'm all for that.

Absolutely.

 

[Estro Felino]

Or using some other method, or using two methods to be sure. But human nature is human nature, and if, especially if there isn't good sex education available, accidents will happen.

The effectiveness of the pill still isn't 100%, even if you take it perfectly, and can also be affected by other factors such as illness (especially vomiting and diarrhoea) or interactions with other medication (even some herbal 'medicines').


I don't think anybody here is actually arguing that unprotected sex (if you don't want children) is a good idea.

How are you going to define a 'fetus' in this case? Because, if you're going to call it 'killing' from conception, then fetuses get flushed all the time before women even know they're pregnant. If you're not, then you've got to make a choice as to when it becomes unacceptable.

Yeah...
The pill can also cause blood clots and uterine cancer.

So what?
Is it better to kill a fetus than risking your own life?

 

[ratiocinator]

So what?
Is it better to kill a fetus than risking your own life?

You didn't answer my question about what you mean by the emotive phrase "kill a fetus", and, I'll repeat, I don't know anybody who thinks abortion is a good idea or should be used instead of contraception, just that it is sometimes the least bad option and that it should therefore be legal and available to women without condemnation or judgement.

 

[crossfire]

The pill is not prescribed unless you are fertile.

Incorrect

Have you ever gone to a gynecologist?

Yes, have you?

 

[F1fan]

Well...there's also chastity as option if a woman cannot take the pill.

That's an easier option for women who believe in conspiracy theories. If more women believed in conspiracy theories there will be less chance of them ever having sex again. Or even getting through a first date.

Or killing a fetus is more important than having unprotected sex?

Or taking the Morning After pill before there's a fetus, and before there's a zygote.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"While there was a consensus that abortion cannot replace contraceptive use, poor couple communication, lack of planning, lack of acceptable contraceptive methods and the pleasures that people associate with having unprotected sex result in the perception that some individuals rely on abortion over contraception to prevent unintended births"

Do women and men consider abortion as an alternative to contraception in the United States? An exploratory study - PubMed

The USA, a country with widespread access to the full range of modern methods of contraception, continues to have one of the highest abortion rates among developed countries. Forty-nine per cent of women reported ever experiencing an unintended pregnancy in 2001; 48% of these conceptions...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

When I say they're using it as birth control, I don't mean they're replacing it with contraceptives. I mean that their reason to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy, rather than due to trauma reasons (rape or incest) or medical emergencies. Most abortions are simply because the mother doesn't want to have the baby for whatever reason. That's what I mean as using abortion as a form of birth control.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What possible compromise is there?

They can have a better chance to work through the issues the mother is having. A lot of women are scared of pregnancy or there's some relationship issue going on. Hell, my mom actually had an appointment to about me at one point because she was fighting with my dad! (Obviously she didn't go through with it and I think it was more to **** him off.) It's a very intense emotional time.

Anyway, it's just a hypothetical. The point is that good communication is key.

 

[Pogo]

When I say they're using it as birth control, I don't mean they're replacing it with contraceptives. I mean that their reason to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy, rather than due to trauma reasons (rape or incest) or medical emergencies. Most abortions are simply because the mother doesn't want to have the baby for whatever reason. That's what I mean as using abortion as a form of birth control.

Simply? You think having a child is simple?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Simply? You think having a child is simple?

No. You pulled that out of thin air.

 

[Copernicus]

Explain me why my best friend has never had an abortion in her life.
She must have had 30 boyfriends in her life.

We would need to find her and ask her that question. Could you ask her yourself?