Trump Supporters and Putin Supporters: Judged by the Same Standards or Not?

[Debater Slayer]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

 

[74x12]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

Yes, we should not judge or condemn all Putin supporters. That's real extremism. It's not open minded. It just shows people listen to the hype and anti-Russia propaganda too much. Not all Russians are bad. Not all Putin supporters are bad. Actually, they do have some justifiable reasons for supporting war in Ukraine. If you were Russian you might be thinking like them. Actually since everyone is so worked up and hyped into an anti-Russian frenzy ... that means they're all more susceptible to propaganda and manipulation by their own govenrments. This means that if they were Russian they would still be susceptible and thus; more likely to support Putin than others.

 

[Koldo]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

I don't know much russian elections but the little I could gather is: the other candidates make Putin look the most reasonable choice as in the least prone to war and extremism. Americans really don't have the same excuse. If I am wrong about Russia, by all means let me know.

 

[Nakosis]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

Per Arnold..

 

[Debater Slayer]

Per Arnold..

Schwarzenegger supported the Iraq War and was (not sure if he still is either) fairly close friends with Bush, who was just as criminal and hawkish as Putin.

Why should we listen to him as any sort of authority on matters of war and propaganda?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, we should not judge or condemn all Putin supporters. That's real extremism. It's not open minded. It just shows people listen to the hype and anti-Russia propaganda too much. Not all Russians are bad. Not all Putin supporters are bad. Actually, they do have some justifiable reasons for supporting war in Ukraine. If you were Russian you might be thinking like them. Actually since everyone is so worked up and hyped into an anti-Russian frenzy ... that means they're all more susceptible to propaganda and manipulation by their own govenrments. This means that if they were Russian they would still be susceptible and thus; more likely to support Putin than others.

I agree that living in Russia most likely makes them more susceptible to believing Putin's propaganda, but do you disagree that Putin was also wrong to invade Ukraine and that Russian forces have committed war crimes there?

 

[74x12]

I agree that living in Russia most likely makes them more susceptible to believing Putin's propaganda, but do you disagree that Putin was also wrong to invade Ukraine and that Russian forces have committed war crimes there?

No. But I do see there are two sides to the story and I can see why Russians believe they're doing the right thing.

Ultimately, even though I think Russia was provoked by NATO into a war that they really believe is for their own survival. Yet, I must side with Ukraine because I think it's a sovereign country and has a right to make their own decisions. So, no I don't side with Russia.

What I wish though is that Ukraine would have not militarized itself, not sided with NATO and remained a neutral, peaceful country. So the whole thing is really a way to weaken Russia and punish Russia at the expense of the civilians in Ukraine.

Of course there will be war crimes in any war. Ukraine has also committed many war crimes; even against civilians. This doesn't justify Russia's own war crimes of course. As the aggressor they are more at fault here. But, that doesn't excuse Ukraine either.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Putin material was captured that indicates he wanted all of Ukraine. The entire kettle of fish.

Fleeing Russian soldiers left behind key military documents that indicated Putin had plans to seize all of Ukraine, officials said

 

[icehorse]

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

Among other differences, the first thing that leaps to mind is that there appears to be a LOT of (threatening) coercion going on in Russia these days. I don't think you can really count those who are threatened with violence the same way you can count those who are not.

 

[Nakosis]

Schwarzenegger supported the Iraq War and was (not sure if he still is either) fairly close friends with Bush, who was just as criminal and hawkish as Putin.

Why should we listen to him as any sort of authority on matters of war and propaganda?

I'm just pointing it out as an example of goodwill being afforded the people of Russia.

Is it happening? Yes.
Whether or not you agree with it is another matter.

 

[sun rise]

The OP is a complex tangle.

Who Putin and Trump are is of course part of the picture. The propaganda, lies and gaslighting they use is another. The media or part of it acting as their political arm (mandatory in Russia, voluntarily in the US) is another.

The core question for me in the OP is a matter of blame. To blame people wholesale for buying what they're "selling" is to basically blame everyone who has ever been seduced by good advertising to buy something. It's a form of blaming the victim.

I can be angry and frustrated with someone who has been taken in but blaming them is over the line. My blame casting is reserved for those who deliberately mislead others.

 

[stvdv]

Per Arnold..

Thank you for sharing

 

[stvdv]

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

I don't condemn people

Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

No. I think nobody should be condemned

 

[Revoltingest]

Schwarzenegger supported the Iraq War and was (not sure if he still is either) fairly close friends with Bush, who was just as criminal and hawkish as Putin.

That's a pretty far out claim. While both have started
wars, it ignores the reasons & agendas. A significant
difference is that Bush never intended making Iraq or
Afghanistan part of USA. Another is that while Bush
had "honesty issues", Putin's dishonesty has been
made law, with criminalization of criticism.

About Ahnold....I recall your posting this before.
Do you oppose what he said in the video because of
what he's supported in the past? Or do you dismiss
what he said because of this?
Or something else? Your point isn't clear.
The video stands on its own. I find this approach to
be productive...at least as much as the advocacy of
one non-leader can be.

About the 2016 election....
Did you find Hillary to be a good candidate...her
record in the Senate, her proffered agendas, etc?
It seems that you strongly prefer her over Trump, but
is this a reasonable position, given the her record,
& the info available about him at the time, including
his total lack of any record in office?

 

[Koldo]

No. But I do see there are two sides to the story and I can see why Russians believe they're doing the right thing.

Ultimately, even though I think Russia was provoked by NATO into a war that they really believe is for their own survival. Yet, I must side with Ukraine because I think it's a sovereign country and has a right to make their own decisions. So, no I don't side with Russia.

What I wish though is that Ukraine would have not militarized itself, not sided with NATO and remained a neutral, peaceful country. So the whole thing is really a way to weaken Russia and punish Russia at the expense of the civilians in Ukraine.

Of course there will be war crimes in any war. Ukraine has also committed many war crimes; even against civilians. This doesn't justify Russia's own war crimes of course. As the aggressor they are more at fault here. But, that doesn't excuse Ukraine either.

I would have completely agreed with you if Crimea hadn't been taken. After that it was obvious that the alternative to remain a peaceful neutral country no longer existed.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Schwarzenegger supported the Iraq War and was (not sure if he still is either) fairly close friends with Bush, who was just as criminal and hawkish as Putin.

Why should we listen to him as any sort of authority on matters of war and propaganda?

His argument is persuasive even if his previous views were flawed.

 

[Revoltingest]

His argument is persuasive even if his previous view were flawed.

After all, who hasn't had flawed views.
The OP is no exception. Yet we don't
dismiss him for this history...usually.

 

[Clara Tea]

Trump Supporters and Putin Supporters: Judged by the Same Standards or Not?

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

The 2020 election was between Trump and Hillary Clinton.

Hillary obtained debate questions before a debate (trying to take the presidency...almost treason).

The DNC intentionally and crookedly (they admitted) wrecked Berny Sander's chance to be president. No penalties given, and the same people are in power.

 

[Yazata]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

I voted for Donald Trump both times. I may or may not do it again, that depends on who runs against him in the Primaries. All of your reasons listed above apply to me, except the third one. I don't feel that I was misled in any way.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere.

That's a pretty abrupt change of subject.

It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

I don't think that any of us really know how prevalent support for the war is in Russia. Perhaps nobody does, since many Russians probably aren't sure what they think.

I would guess that the majority support the war right now because most Russians are pretty nationalistic and will be inclined to support their country in time of war.

But I would also guess that support is pretty shallow. If the war drags on and many of the country's young men return in coffins or maimed by wounds, public opinion might start to turn.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

Another abrupt change of subject. You're veering back and forth between the US and Russia, between Trump and Putin.

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters?

You seem to be slipping an implicit unstated premise into your rhetoric: that Trump and Putin are somehow equivalent and that support for either of them is somehow the same and should be judged the same way if we are to avoid hypocrisy. That's a hugely false assumption in my opinion and needs acknowledgement and defense.

But to answer the question, I don't think that many/most of Putin's Russian supporters deserve my self-righteous moral abuse. They see themselves as patriots, they love their country, and they want Russia to be strong. They support Putin because in their eyes he rescued Russia when it was unraveling in the 1990's under Yeltsin. He restored stability and made people's lives better.

I don't hate them. I don't despise them. Like them I would like to see their country prosper and succeed. Ideally, I hope that it can someday become a friend of the United States. But Russia's success mustn't be at the expense of its neighbors. Finding a way to thread that needle requires that we take cognizance of their motivations and concerns.

After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

Of course. But I am also cheering for Ukraine and against Russia in this particular war. But my support for Ukraine doesn't imply any hatred for the Russian people. I like Russia and the Russian people. This ill-conceived war will likely turn out to be a tragedy for them. I hate to see that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Ever since Trump's election in 2016, I've seen various explanations and justifications for supporting him, including (but not limited to) these:

- The opposing candidate is perceived to be worse.

- The Trump supporter believes Trump will address their problems better than the other candidates.

- They were supposedly misled by his promises that he failed to fulfill.

- Their politics align most with his.

- They believe he fulfilled his campaign promises as much as he could.

- He didn't start any new wars.

Now, the claim that most Russians support the war is one I have also encountered multiple times here and elsewhere. It seems to me that it overlooks how dictatorial the Russian regime is and how much it suppresses opposition, which could give a false impression that most Russians approve of the regime's actions even though the reality may be different.

This question is for those who believe Trump supporters shouldn't be condemned wholesale and that they aren't all misinformed, unethical, or apathetic to others' suffering (and I agree they definitely vary in their motives and reasons for voting for him, by the way):

If Trump supporters shouldn't be assumed to all be malicious, misinformed, or apathetic to others' suffering, does that also apply to Putin supporters? After all, Russian state media has done its best to spread pro-Putin propaganda, suppress and demonize opposition, and portray Ukraine as a haven for Nazism. Do you think anyone who supports Putin must be condemned regardless of their reasons or what they believe about Putin (whether or not those coincide with reality)?

I'm trying to see whether the same generosity and ostensible goodwill that some extend to Trump supporters also extend to Putin supporters, and vice versa.

I think condemning such supporters is the easy route. Too easy.
For Putin supporters there is going to be perhaps coercion and a lot more propaganda. So it’s hard for me to condemn such folks. Maybe they were genuinely convinced by Putin’s arguments, maybe they are just nodding along to avoid backlash of some kind. Social or otherwise.
I don’t know.

Trump’s supporters I also don’t really blame. Not really. I’m sure many were genuinely convinced that he was the best choice or maybe their vote was merely out of loyalty to the party
Something I’ve seen in a lot of US style politics.
I do blame the “preachers” of Trump though. Those guys just seized upon an opportunity to make money fleecing their audience imo.
(Seriously look them up. I’m sure some are sincere but wow, some of their “prophesies” are wild.)