Truth is not constant.

[Altfish]

How true.

Being equally pedantic, in binary, you wouldn't have the symbol '2'

 

[Onoma]

If for me? Yes, in the end. The strong objective parts under methodological naturalism seems to hold. But the problem is that objective reality is not all of reality.
Here is one definition of objective reality: Having reality independently of the mind. Now try to remove the mind.

Well, that's why I brought up the question about math proofs existing outside the mind

There are really 2 main views held by mathematicians, ( iirc ) some say yes, some say no

I found Erdos' propositions rather interesting because he seemed to imply that he believed they existed outside the human mind, yet he also claimed God kept the best proofs for himself, which would insinuate that Erdos believed there were proofs that were not attainable by humans

I take this to be a 3rd view, rather paradoxical, because it invokes the existence of truths in the form of mathematics that cannot actually be discovered

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Being equally pedantic, in binary, you wouldn't have the symbol '2'

Correct.
Now if you can reduce truth down to one truth, I will listen. But if you confuse objective and subjective and try to ignore either, I will point it out.

 

[ChristineM]

I am now only thinking about the unreal and then I am writing it down and now you see it. That is how real only thinking is. If you couldn't think, you couldn't act.
And even if God is not real, the thinking of God is real, because you can observe it on a bran scan, right.

Humans have been burn for being witches, though witches aren't real.
To paraphrase: The unreal can have real consequences.

Been through this before, neuroscience disagrees with you

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, that's why I brought up the question about math proofs existing outside the mind

There are really 2 main views held by mathematicians, ( iirc ) some say yes, some say no

I found Erdos' propositions rather interesting because he seemed to imply that he believed they existed outside the human mind, yet he also claimed God kept the best proofs for himself, which would insinuate that Erdos believed there were proofs that were not attainable by humans

I take this to be a 3rd view, rather paradoxical, because it invokes the existence of truths in the form of mathematics that cannot actually be discovered

Well, there may indeed be such a kind of math, but then it would belong to God.

In practice for those 20+ years I have been doing this as for knowledge, truth and all the rest, the only thing I totally certain of, is that I can't rule out that I got wrong. But then again I am a skeptic, so it follows with the territory.

So for the bold part. To me it is kind of both and then you go and point out a 3rd option. It never really stops.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Been through this before, neuroscience disagrees with you

Well, I am wrong, yet I type this. Go figure.

 

[ppp]

Do I think I know better then you?

No. And how is that supposed to be at all relevant to what I just said?

 

[Polymath257]

It means we didn't have the full picture, and thus not the truth. The value of pi, for example, definitively cannot be anything other than am approximation of 3.1416...., and formulas for circles there area is pi•r².

The value of pi is best done independent of geometry. And, in non-Euclidean geometry it is NOT the case that the area of a circle is pi*r^2 and the circumference of a circle is NOT 2*pi*r. In both cases, the ratio A/r^2 and C/(2*r) is not a constant: it depends on the radius.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The value of pi is best done independent of geometry. And, in non-Euclidean geometry it is NOT the case that the area of a circle is pi*r^2 and the circumference of a circle is NOT 2*pi*r. In both cases, the ratio A/r^2 and C/(2*r) is not a constant: it depends on the radius.

I love your level of knowledge.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know of relative truth
"Today is Sunday" is true at my location but not in Australia (and it won't be for six days in a few hours).
and of conditional truth
"The sum of the angles in a triangle is 180°" - on a plain.
but what truth changes with wisdom?
Example, please?

Truth that is taught in spiritual teaching.

 

[Polymath257]

No, that is not true in binary base.
It is relatively true based on there being beings with cognition which can do that. 2+2=4 is not true of the universe. Without humans it wouldn't be true.

It *is* true in binary. It is just written differently in the binary system (as 10+10=100). The same mathematical fact can be *written* in multiple ways, depending on how you represent numbers.

 

[ChristineM]

Well, I am wrong, yet I type this. Go figure.

Explain your reasoning.

Of course you know we have been here before, turning imagination into reality through physical manipulation is not the same as imagination being reality

Why Your Thoughts Are Not Real

 

[Spirit of Light]

By your definition, "truth" is worthless.

In what waydid you conclude that?
The only truth I seek is the spiritual truth, and that is not worthless

 

[Spirit of Light]

No. And how is that supposed to be at all relevant to what I just said?

It was you who started that part of the discussion so you will know the answer

 

[Polymath257]

I love your level of knowledge.

The variation of these ratios is much easier to see in spherical geometry. A circle then has a smaller circumference than C=2*pi*r would predict and a larger area than A=pi*r^2 would.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Explain your reasoning.

Of course you know we have been here before, turning imagination into reality through physical manipulation is not the same as imagination being reality

Why Your Thoughts Are Not Real

Well, if thought were not real, then you couldn't have unreal thoughts, which have real effects. You are looking at it now. I have unreal thoughts, i.e. my thoughts are not real, yet you are looking at the physical representation of the unreal, because these unreal thoughts are here on the screen, which is real.

 

[ChristineM]

Well, if thought were not real, then you couldn't have unreal thoughts, which have real effects. You are looking at it now. I have unreal thoughts, i.e. my thoughts are not real, yet you are looking at the physical representation of the unreal, because these unreal thoughts are here on the screen, which is real.

Cause is not the effect

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The variation of these ratios is much easier to see in spherical geometry. A circle then has a smaller circumference than C=2*pi*r would predict and a larger area than A=pi*r^2 would.

Sorry. I like math when explain to me in layman terms. You are good at that. For myself, I stopped at the high school middle level of math. I don't have the brain for that. I work in words and how they work. That is my force.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Cause is not the effect

Cause and effect are connected, unless you believe on the macro level in uncaused effects.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Truth change according to what level of wisdom a person has achieved.
It means two people do not see the same truth, because no person hold the exact same wisdom level.
Relative truth and conditional truth are two different truths, but they are both true.

So at what "wisdom level" does this "truth" become false?